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Subject: Is "Whoa" Breaking Necessary?

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rames14

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07/20/2008 4:06 PM	Alert
Rainmaker - As Hooligan said, at the seminar we learned that the dog should stand with feet steady. The "Supermodel" talks a little bit more about it in chapter 14 of her book. During the seminar, she would bring birds closer to the dog (not the other way around) while the dog just stood there. She said the dog eventually goes into almost a trance. Hope Rain is continuing to do well. Best of luck with your training.

Julie

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07/21/2008 2:51 PM	Alert
I have never understood the controversy on this subject. Kind of like is force fetching really necessary? Really necessary - sometimes not. Does it hurt anything? Not at all. Taught poorly or used poorly it isn't good but that applies to everything, and that includes the use of 'whoa'. At least as I have come to understand and implement, the use of the command which means to the dog "Don't move your feet" does not apply or even work in attempt to get a dog to point or to hold a point. That's about like giving a dog a command to 'love something'. Doesn't work, has to come from the inside. Now, when a dog really does point, TRAINING IN THE YARD IN WHICH A DOG IS TAUGHT THROUGH THE USE OF THE THE 'STAND STILL' OR 'WHOA' COMMAND TO REMAIN STANDING WHEN BIRDS ARE FLUSHED, SHOT OR ARE SCUFFLING AROUND, SEEN OR EVADING A FLUSH works really nicely to keep them in place so they don't break on the flush, shot or whatever tempting thing they believe gives credence for movement you don't agree with. Whoa used as a punitive thing can really mess up a dog. Instead I have found TEACHING a dog what I expect on a bird encounter once on a point removes the need for whoa, for punishment or correction. Unlike many bird dog people, I will not do that in the field. Like force fetching, when you teach the behavior in the classroom, you can enjoy the results in the field. But, you have to understand what the dog is thinking, and that requires some effort. I see no downsides to having a dog that understands a 'stand still' command, like Kwik said, it's darned handly in lots of places. Use that response to teach manners on birds and then just keep them steady to flush and anything else you need. Same as you do in the duck blind. Julie

Jere

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07/22/2008 8:58 PM	Alert
Hi Julie, In the spirit of continuing discussion I typed a long comment - a "dissertation," as Sandy described it; which got "lost in cyberspace." My fingers are still sore so here's a short question. Is this yard training going on after the dog is pointing a bird in the yard or as "proofing" of the "whoa" or whatever command to "stand?" My concern is that as soon as one introduces birds into the scenario with the dog standing as commanded to, s/he is layering the sight, scent or sound of scuffling of the bird onto the command to stand. They may each, in fact, when encountered in the future be triggers for that commanded behavior - a stand. I want them to be triggers of the natural point. Further, I want the dog to naturally relocate point if it ever loses location contact with the pointed bird - not just uselessly stand there. So, "don't move your feet" is not a condition I place on a dog on point. Is there anything to talk about? Jere

Julie

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07/23/2008 9:00 AM	Alert
Hello my friend, I knew you'd be there sometime. Hope the north is treating you well, I would send you some of our warmth if you needed... My concern is that as soon as one introduces birds into the scenario with the dog standing as commanded to, s/he is layering the sight, scent or sound of scuffling of the bird onto the command to stand. They may each, in fact, when encountered in the future be triggers for that commanded behavior - a stand. I want them to be triggers of the natural point. Further, I want the dog to naturally relocate point if it ever loses location contact with the pointed bird - not just uselessly stand there. So, "don't move your feet" is not a condition I place on a dog on point. Is there anything to talk about? Jere Dogs slated for real upland hunting need to be experienced and developed on the real thing in the real place or little else matters. Dogs can be taught a 'stand' command as the obedience people do with no relevance to live birds. When a dog has evolved in the way it is capable on real birds in real situations, it is a relatively trivial thing to teach that flushing, flying or shooting are not license to move without cue. Dogs ALLOWED to establish their own understanding of the natural bird world relocate because it is called for in their world. If dogs can get that sort of perspective then teaching them not to move with flushing related activities again, is not a big deal. Maybe it seems simple to me because I am simple, but also because I tend to allow far more than I orchestrate while working young dogs in the field and even on retrieving. When I do orchestrate, it is generally a cooperative thing as opposed to an enforced thing.

Jere

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07/25/2008 11:37 AM	Alert
Posted By Julie on 07/23/2008 9:00 AM 1. Hello my friend, I knew you'd be there sometime. Hope the north is treating you well, I would send you some of our warmth if you needed... ... 2. Dogs slated for real upland hunting need to be experienced and developed on the real thing in the real place or little else matters. Dogs can be taught a 'stand' command as the obedience people do with no relevance to live birds. When a dog has evolved in the way it is capable on real birds in real situations, it is a relatively trivial thing to teach that flushing, flying or shooting are not license to move without cue. Dogs ALLOWED to establish their own understanding of the natural bird world relocate because it is called for in their world. If dogs can get that sort of perspective then teaching them not to move with flushing related activities again, is not a big deal. Maybe it seems simple to me because I am simple, but also because I tend to allow far more than I orchestrate while working young dogs in the field and even on retrieving. When I do orchestrate, it is generally a cooperative thing as opposed to an enforced thing. 1. The north is treating us just fine, thank you. I could take a little more isolation this summer, but we're muddling through and will survive the interactions with disputatious folks we'd like to avoid... As for warmth (of the climate kind), while it has been COOL this summer - our June temperature averaged (47.8 F) about five degrees less than the warmest recent year - 2005! We have yet to see a daily high greater than 65 and Anchorage appears headed for a RECORD year with fewer days above 65 than EVER recorded. There is more snow in the "bowl" across the Bay from town than I've seen this time of year in the thirty years I've been here. Usually there is NONE. Maybe next year we'll have a "year without summer." 2. I especially relate to the statements I highlighted above. I probably "orchestrate" even less than you do. My concept of the 'well-bred dog' would be that which requires minimal orchestration to achieve maximal cooperative utility. Unfortunately, I suspect most owners would require considerable orchestration to appreciate such a dog (the few I've tried to help that way wouldn't buy it. What do you think on that? You may appreciate this little tale I heard of an older man and his setter (This was part of the 'dissertation' now "lost in cyberspace:" When they hunted no words were spoken in command by the man. They went where the man led, they went where the dog led. The dog searched, found and pointed birds. Then the man would move into the area of the point until he had placed himself where he felt he had best available chance for a good, killing shot and stopped. The instant he stopped the dog rushed in to flush. Of course, the dog retrieved and delivered the bird. ... The man who told me about this pair did not know just how this was achieved - by initial training with a verbal release which was layered (intentionally or unintentionally) by the action of stopping and then dropped, or otherwise. I like to think it all came about through bonding, productive experience and perhaps some melding of minds of dog and man. Eh? Did you get that Richard Back book we talked about some time ago yet? I may have another contribution on the "whoa" subject and what I see as possible pitfalls later - got to fight alligators right now. Later, Jere

Julie

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07/25/2008 4:52 PM	Alert
now. Later, Jere If I put down everything I REALLY think and sometimes REALLY do, I'd get the 'weird woman' thing way more than I do now. I have seen phenomena before as you describe with the setter; I have often experienced similar things myself with dogs capable of connection and willing to suffer the slings of the slow human. As you know it is commonplace in the house of the bonded pairs. That however, is not the consuming audience. People like to travel as far into that venue as they can without feeling they've lost a grasp of what they are doing. Dogs get things, people expect a program not unlike the one allowing us to chat on this forum. The dog part isn't the hardest part.... Well, the dog part isn't hard with the really capable ones. They exist on an end of the bell curve though. My brother in law had the book on his shelf. Kind of family I am in. Julie

Jere

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07/28/2008 10:03 PM	Alert
Actually there are several bell curves involved and, yes, the overall exceptional dogs are those which would "test out" in the upper tails of all the bell curves. That, I believe is what Bob Wehle was referring to when he said to the effect "Its hard to get all your coons up the same tree at the same time." It is the breeder's dilemma But, when it comes to understanding humans and working with one productively in the field, my guess is most hunting dogs are pretty adept at it and the bell curve is rather sharply peaked about the average. Most folks just don't let dogs show them how well they can accomplish that task and few if any breeders have even peripherally concentrated on this. They really didn't have to - dog's started doing that stuff before they were dogs and have been refining it (through natural selection) ever since. Some breeders have actually bred for independence in the dog that is counter to optimal cooperative hunting by man and dog. Jere

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Forums > American Pointing Labrador Association > Training > Is "Whoa" Breaking Necessary?