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Subject: To Sit or not To Sit

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bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri

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01/30/2006 12:14 PM	Alert
OK Folks, I need your opinions. I am in the process of trying to get Brady Steady to Wing and Shot. I am trying to decide if I want to use the Sit Whistle to enforce steadiness or just re enforce Whoa and make sure he knows that the only thing that releases him from Whoa is me and not a gunshot. It has not been going well so far. I guess I have been letting him get away with breaking on the shot too much this hunting season. He knows Whoa, but thinks that a gun shot is his cue to head out after the bird. He will stand to watch the flush but the chase is on once the gun is shot. If I work him on a check cord, he will stand and watch until I release him. If I dont work him on a check cord he will break on the shot almost everytime. I can call him off and keep him from going all the way, but he still breaks. Since I am mostly working him by myself It is difficult to control him when I am the one doing the shooting. He is whoa broke but maybe not whoa broke enough. How many folks out there are using the Sit Whistle to maintain or gain steady to wing and shot and how many are still doing it the old fashioned way? Is one easier to train than the other? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What is the proper use of the Sit Whistle? Before the flush, after the flush? Any suggestions on how to get the steady to wing and shot point across to my hard headed male would be appreciated.

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/30/2006 1:23 PM	Alert
Joe, You'll get all kinds of opinions on this from the pointing purists to the retriever trainers, but you are concerned about fixing something. We are not talking about a sequencial program and a problem free dog. With that in mind, here are a few things to think about 1) standing is a lot closer to breaking than sitting, 2) training to "not move" in two different body positions at the same time is difficult and 3) a dog will do what you let it do. Therefore, in your situation it would be best to take care of the breaking problem first and later teach steadiness in the two different positions. Don't try to tackle different problems at the same time......especially, since (in your case) one actually fuels breaking. Here's what I do from the very beginning, and I see no reason why this can't be done with an older dog. Teach the dog that any one of these - a verbal command, a whistle, a gunshot and/or a flush mean sit. They all mean the same thing....simple and clear cut. Chain the commands and drill it into the dog's head that there are no exceptions to the sit command. The sequence of "ready, set, go" must be dealt with. When a dog is sitting he is "ready".......when a dog is on point he is "set". Where will you have more control over the pointing retriever that wants desperately to "go"? The dog has been conditioned (permitted) to think a shot or flush means "go" and needs to be deprogrammed. The key is knowing how to chain commands. The most interesting one is flush means sit (later it can become don't move). The flush "command" requires constant maintenance. It must be drilled until it is a reflex.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Jay
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01/30/2006 2:37 PM	Alert
I'm a pointing purist I guess. I personally can't stand the thought of my dog whoaing and then sitting on a flush. It just ain't right for any pointing dawg. Now I am in absolutely no way as qualified as Kwick in this matter, but this is exactly what I am currently working on with Allie, with some tips from Julie. Without going into intricate detail on reading what your dog actually needs (which only Julie can put as elegantly as is possible), she seemed to concentrate on the thought that I needed to dechase, which she talks about in her tip of the month, and needed to do way more whoa work with distractions such as gun shots, tied birds, flushing birds. I've been around several pointing guys, and it is amazing how much time they spend on whoaing. I always knew it, but always thought that a lab was smarter than an EP, plus the fact that I'm lazy and wanted it to be a fast learned command, but they engrain it so much that the dog would stand through anything and be perfectly relaxed. That's what I'm going to strive for. Anyways, that is what what I'm doing with Allie, but yours may need something a little different, I wouldn't know. I'm not trying to speak for Julie and make it more simple than it actually is, just trying to summarize what help I got. Hopefully the new upcoming section of the book will address this more than her last one, and give me/us more to go off of in this area. If it does then I can't wait! Jay

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01/30/2006 2:58 PM	Alert
I would like to make a comment about Jims post. I really like the "ready, set, go" analogy. I'd like to add a thought in the form of a question. Sitting or standing, which position would offer the dog the best chance to get a good mark on a bird that has been shot? I know which position I prefer, and it wouldn't work in real heavy cover that was high, but then the dog more than likely wouldn't see the bird go down anyhow.

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01/30/2006 4:03 PM	Alert
Once he is "whoa" broke,that means he is steady to "wing,shot and fall","Whoa" means "dont move your feet".I would go back and work on "whoa",whoa on a board,whoa on table,whoa everywhere,I do it with a bird in hand,a bird tied in front of him/her.Whoa in the yard with my daughter running around him.When one goes on point,I tell one "whoa" and if he breaks,he pays,Just a few times of paying the price,they get it down,then you dont have to say it at all.It is alot of fun to send him in to flush a bird,but if I flush it after hes' on point,He had better stay steady until released...Just Pointers

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KwickLabs
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01/30/2006 5:07 PM	Alert
Jay, I agree with you in theory. In fact, I had thought about mentioning the dechase training of Julie's. He might well go that route. I'm in the process of steadying Daisy right now and we are using the ''here"/dechase technique you are talking about. She is also learning the verbal sit, whistle, shot and flush chain. She will be taught "whoa" in the yard and I'm sure there will be no issues with the difference in "whoa" and "sit".....as there were none with Taffey. She will be dechased on birds and go through the retriever steadying process. When we start "doing birds" seriously the skills will be in place. The real problem is what to do when the process is apparantly shortcircuited and a dog is now doing birds and has acquired a penchant for doing things his way? Do you go back to the stage where something was missed or not? As you know my dogs run AKC and HRC hunt tests plus we will be doing some field trial events toward the end of this year and into the next. These tests are geared to a dog performing around the basic command - sit. As much as how "purty" a pointer looks remaining in the "whoa" position, I just can't see the value of compromising the retriever that takes over after a flush. The point is over and it's a Lab. That's just where I am in training right now, but then again things change. I had toyed with sitting Taffey after she got the APLA's 10 second score in hand (usually a lot longer before gunners and judges were in position), and quite frankly it was nearly impossible to make her sit before a flush. She was just too into pointing to make sitting feasible. It was the wrong time to experiment and I had not learned how to make a flushing bird a "command". If you are doing a walk-up in a Master Hunter test and breaking birds are involved, I would rather have my dog deferring to a sit rather remaining in the near breaking "go" position of standing. So I guess in a nutshell, since I'll be running retriever hunt tests for most of the year and APLA tests once in awhile, it becomes a priority issue. Which way is best overall? When I hunt no one is judging and the "mutts" get to meet my personal standards......some of which will go against those of tests. Today however, after the flush.....when the point is over....I have no problem dealing with what is now a retriever. That as you may recall is the theory behind dechase.......the point is over.......now what? My on going problem is that blowing the whistle after the bird has flushed turns into an APLA judging conflict . Even though blowing a whistle on all walk-ups or flushes is standard practice in AKC and HRC hunt tests, it wasn't going to work in an APLA test (but that was another thread ). As I stated Joe's dog doesn't understand that he can't be sent until he is told. He could go about the dechase approach which is based on not making the bird the "bad guy". I should mention that none of the sit/whistle/shot/flush is done with birds early on. It becomes a conditioned reflex almost in the same vein as "whoa" in the yard. After the "command" is entrenched, then birds are introduced. There is no question that breaking is a common problem for hunt test dogs. In a test you fail.....when hunting it creates different consequences......none of which are fun, and breaking is not an easy fix after it becomes a habit.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri

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01/30/2006 6:33 PM	Alert
Good discussion here. Here is some more info on my "situation" Brady does well with Whoa in the yard or in a training situation. I can whoa him at a dead run, throw bumpers all around him, throw live pigeons in front of him, shoot a shotgun in the air, shoot a blank pistol and just basically try anything to get him to break from whoa and he wont move. He just cant seem to equate that with staying put after I Whoa him after a point. I think Jim is correct it has become a habit with him because I had been training alone alot and did not have a good way to control him when I was doing the shooting. My only recourse at the time was to holler no at hm and call him back and re whoa him and then release him. Those of you who know my dog know he has a lot of go in him. He loves to retrieve. In the begining when I was working on the point and popping a lot of birds (flyaways) on him he would just stand there and watch them fly away. I actually had the thought cross my brain that this steady to wing and shot thing was going to be easy. Once I actually started shooting those birds he decided he would teach me how wrong my thinking was. It has been a long time since I picked up Julies book so I will have to re look at the dechase scenario. I thought I had it memorized but I dont remember that part. I dont let him chase, and when he does take off after the bird he is easily called back. ( He knows here very well) CPK, I here you on the Whoa training, and when I go back to yard work he is solid as a rock. He gets lots of Whoa refresher training from both me and the wife during the day while I am at work. She want to make sure he is whoa broke for safety reasons. (Jims Post on the Quarry, Fences) Jim, I am seriously considering the sit to gun shot, being a traditional pointing guy like Jay(Setters for me) I just had a hard time swallowing the idea. But it does make sense when you think about it. Joe

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/30/2006 7:03 PM	Alert
Joe, Here's a link to dechasing. http://gunclub-labs.com/tip.html

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

John Lindell

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01/30/2006 7:05 PM	Alert
Joe, from the information you've posted, my opinion would be the dog knows the command and that it should remain steady, but it also knows you will not inforce it. The problem is not in your method of training to remain steady, but in you're method of inforcing disobedience to the command. Have a plan in place to inforce the command (in this case, remaining steady). There's several ways to go about this when you are working by yourself. It just depends on the dog, his attitude and maturity on which method would be most appropriate, unfortunately, one can't see that on the internet.

bubulkaj Moderator
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01/30/2006 8:04 PM	Alert
John, knowing my dog, and myself, you are probably correct. My current technique has been to call him back, pick him up, re stand him at whoa and then releasing him for the retrieve or sometimes not let him have the retrieve at all. Do you have some suggestions other than beating the tar out of him that might help? (I am not saying you suggested any such thing) Dont get me wrong I dont mind discipline but I am not one of those guys that is going to use a cattle prod on my dog. He means more to me than that. I do use the e-collar and have no problem doing so. Brady is a 3 year old hard charging yellow male, weighing in at just over 90lbs of pure muscle. My wife does the roading! She ran the NY Marathon. (not with the dog but I think he could have done it) I am not worried about killing drive he has lots of that. He wants to please and actually has been very easy to train other than this. I am positive I am the one that screwed this part up. I am just not real sure the best path to fix it, but I do know what I am doing now is not working. As a beginner trainer the one thing I do know about myself is I dont always know the right correction for the situation. There are times when I see the confused look in his eyes when I am not getting through to him. That is usually when I find myself frustrated and confused. That is also usually a good time to take a break and re think the situation. It really makes you think about what is the best way to communicate your intentions when you see that look in their eyes. If dogs could talk this trainer thing would be a peice of cake.

KwickLabs
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01/30/2006 9:20 PM	Alert
Well, Joe you may be in the same boat I was with line manners on Taffey. A pro friend told me to come on over and work her while he watched. After about 15 minutes, he asked if I really wanted to know. I reassured him that's why I was there and geared myself up for the worst. His reply was....."It's not the dog." So in short, sometimes you just have to become a different person. I have this mental image of me coming up to the line with Taffey wearing one of those Groucho Marx nose, eye glasses and mustache masks, and her rolling on the ground laughing hysterically. I, also, realize that half the readers or more are probably wondering....."Who's Groucho Marx?" A few weeks ago, I was worried about my OB work with Daisy so I called a friend of mine whose expertise includes AKC Obedience training and testing. I explained my concerns and his reply was "Don't ever let her do that." My first reaction was to recall how much that comment was like the old joke about the guy who went to the Doctor and complained that it hurt everytime he hit his head on the wall. The Doc replied, "Then stop doing it." It is necessary to be reminded every so often....."It's not the dog." So Joe, "whacha gonna" do? It's a great topic.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

bubulkaj Moderator
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01/30/2006 10:17 PM	Alert
Well Jim, I am going to have to ponder on this a while. I know one thing for sure is I am going to have to start reading Julies Tips of the Month more often. I just read the Dechase article and it fits my situation pretty closely. There were several good tidbits in there I need to keep in mind. Not using No, and being Calm are two that hit home. This Sunday he for sure brought some frustration out in me. I think Brady is and has been dechased somewhat already. He is steady to flush. Comes when called off, if he does break, but is not steady to the shot at all. By doing a lot of Fly Aways, I think we duplicated Julies dechase method in a slightly different way. He had no problem watching bird fly away then. When I stopped doing fly aways and started shooting birds is when my training slipped. I must admit I have not always held him to a dechase standard this hunting season and I believe that is my problem. Consistency! I am probably closer than I realize and just need a good game plan to get me over the edge with him. That seems to be the way it works with him. I get frustrated re group, get a game plan, and instantly he makes me look like a moron for worrying about it. To Sit or not to Sit is still my question I need to cypher on. I may just have to try the sit thing a time or too to see what I think. He sits on a whistle very solidly. Joe

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01/31/2006 4:19 AM	Alert
Joe,let me clarify for you...There are NO beatings EVER.If I have to beat a dog,someone else can have him.Just reinforcing the command with the e-colar.I also sit a dog and toss pigeons infront of him,that have a rubber band around its body and 1 wing,with one wing a flopping when tossed,These are to build discipline in him.I can see him sitting there a trembling with the desire to get the bird,but not doing so until released.If he does break and gets one,No e-colar here,just displeasure in my voice and a rough repositiong. Jim,,,,Groucho ? nah I picture Albert Einstein in a "lab" coat,having class with his dogs...

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Gun Dawg
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01/31/2006 5:22 PM	Alert
Great post guys.... Thanks for bringing this one up, I'm working on the same issues right now training for higher divisions. JG & Tess

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02/01/2006 6:55 AM	Alert
With regard to Lindell's comment, you will find a story about him in Section II of the book. Same thing he told me once. He was right too. I hate when the men are right... Julie

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02/02/2006 9:51 PM	Alert
Joe, First on the sit or not sit, I like them to sit on flush just because I think it looks better. However, not all the dogs in my kennel are trained that way. I do what fits the dog best. Be aware that training sit on flush will in most cases cause other issues to arise, such as, sitting on point, sitting when honoring another dogs point etc. That's why the traditional pointing dog folks don't teach sit. They do not want to deal with the other issues. And for most folks, training a PL, you already have a full enough plate, so you need to decide if you are willing to deal with other issues as they come up. Other things to think about, is you need to evaluate the dog also. If you have a dog that is always anticipating your next command, you may want to save yourself some frustration and just keep the dog standing on steady. Some of the other things to think about have already been discussed. Now as for enforcing, for me the best way to enforce in the field is the same method you used in the yard. If that's not possible in your case, go back to the yard and re-establish a method you can use in the field. Now Joe, when you "know what I'm doing is not working", here's the answer. Simplify. In this case, you would do that by not shooting the bird, the fall of the bird in increasing Brady's desire to break. Your goal should be steady to flush, then steady to flush and shot and then steady to flush, shot and fall. Sometimes you can get it all done at the same time and with other dogs, you'll need to break it down. You haven't screwed anything up, training is overcoming problems, all of us have ones to deal with and every dog is unique. From what you said in your post, you will be successful, just keep working at it. Julie, all of us are right sometimes, it's just percentages

bubulkaj Moderator
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02/02/2006 10:29 PM	Alert
John, thank you for the reply. Very good points. I am glad we have folks like you and Jim around to keep guys like me straight. Joe

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