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mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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05/01/2007 3:22 PM	Alert
This is somewhat anectdotal. I've gotten back into the upland work after a bit of a bird hiatus with the pup. I've had problem before with stella catching the pigeons, so the last 2 weeks I dizzied/planted them real light. Both times she caught on of the birds, but both times it was the bird that she really pointed. Thinking back, it seems almost every cash of bird-in-mouth was on pointed birds. This made me think of a few things: 1) I don't have slow birds, I have a quick dog! 2) The pointing instinct is there for a reason!! she's run a mile a minute into birds and never got to taste a feather... they must feel the ground shaking and hear the dog coming and flush early. That point really lets her pounce on them. 3) maybe it isn't sooo bad that she got to taste those birds. with enough repetition, she may learn that pointing first results in a good taste. Any thoughts/comments on this last one?? -Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Liv2Hnt
Overland Park, KS

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05/01/2007 4:51 PM	Alert
Matt, I can telly you from experience that this can become a major problem. The problem is the desire to dive in to catch the bird trumps the natural tendency to point. My pup is 12 months old and has exhibited a nice point, but his drive to dive in on birds has been tough to overcome. He had lots of bird contacts prior to force fetch, but I didnt shoot any birds over him until the force fetch process. I think the desire to get the bird in the mouth i.e. retrieve is a big part of this. Ive been working whoa hard, increasing bird exposures and doing the bull pen method shown to me by John King. These all seem to be making progress but we arent there yet. I think if you can avoid letting your dog catch these birds you can save yourself alot of headaches.

Proud Owner of: MPR HR McNally's Right Stuff Ridley

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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05/01/2007 6:00 PM	Alert
Thanks for the tips - i've certainly been trying to avoid this at all costs; I even told myself I would try not dizzying the birds at all. Well, that idea ended when every one of them (of course!) flew away. So i've been going much lighter on the dizzying, and I still have about 1/3 of them fly away instantly, and another 1/3 are gone by the time we get there. Even with this remaining 1/3, she often gets to the birds that she does point. I've decided against carding due to several (many worse) mishaps with that. I've got 130 chuckar chics arriving next week, so I'm really banking on them to save the day - if I can keep some alive. but in the meantime, I guess I keep playing with pigeons. I am considering starting to use the "whoa" command when she points, although I am reluctant to go there yet. She is, however, very good with "whoa", and will hold even when birds are shot over her.... I just haven't been using it yet with pointing. perhaps it is time? Thanks again, Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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05/01/2007 6:01 PM	Alert
I think with satin the more birds she caught the closer she had to get before she pointed, So I bought a launcher and let about 6 birds go when she was getting to close, It backed her up some, But at the test I noticed she is getting a little to close again, So probably gonna have to let some more birds go again!!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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05/01/2007 6:04 PM	Alert
hmmmm, interesting note. makes perfect sense to me. One of those remote releases would really come in handy I guess. Perhaps I should move that up on the "someday-when-I-have-a-real-job priority list". haha, great suggestion though, thanks.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Jere

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05/01/2007 7:31 PM	Alert
Please keep good records, Matt. I'd like to see if that theorem that it takes 200 birds not caught to counter the effects of one caught bird has any validity. You should be able to get an estimate of the ratio as applied to your dog from your experience anyway. I think 200/1 may be an exageration. Jere

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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05/01/2007 7:59 PM	Alert
I think that if the dog is mature it will realize much quicker that if it gets to close the bird is gone. The first 3 birds I did with satin (no shots, NO RETRIEVES,and back to the kennel ) She went back to the house bummed. nothing said, just put her up and got another dog out. The next 3 birds the following day , 1st bird still to close, 2nd bird same, third bird 8ft away from the bird and didnt move until I kicked it up!! that is what I wanted, Shot the bird and she was excited! 200 to 1?? I have talked to some pros were it has taken 30 to 40 birds but never heard 200!!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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05/01/2007 8:11 PM	Alert
I will keep records. Note that I don't actually let her hold onto the birds.... once I can see that she has her mouth around some body part, I begin heavy with the come-in-whistle. She usually gives up the fight with the bird immediately, and comes back. She's been good with that ever since we de-chased. Not sure that makes any difference, just a nuance.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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05/01/2007 8:40 PM	Alert
You don't want your dog to be able to catch birds, unless that is what you want it try to do when you are out hunting. It costs lots more, and is more frustrating, to have birds you pay for or spend time trapping or raising just fly away-but that is what wild birds will do, and your dog needs to have that experience, and learn how to handle a bird on it's own. A dog who keeps catching birds will stop pointing-or won't hold point, and then you will have to punish it for doing what you have let it do-catch birds.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!

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05/01/2007 9:10 PM	Alert
The launchers work great for what you are tying to fix. From what you have described it may be bad to be putting out any more planted birds with out these launchers to assure escape if not pointed. The DT units work great. Read the other thread on this forum and PM KsGunShopLab and see how she is doing with the DT's and how she likes them. She has borrowed mine for a while as i quit all running of my female once the ticks came out and she is bred and due soon. The other way to get there is with a check cord and tie out stakes or helpers-but that is prone to creating more problems if not done perfect. With the launcher the key thing is to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AS THE DOG GOES ON POINT. Now if you have another dog to run or a fried with one the liberated birds can be hunted a 2nd time for fun with the other dog.maybe split the costs if it is soemone elses' dog. Thats what I started doing, letting Ol' Cletis go hunt up the liberated birds that were not shot-gave both dogs some fun for the price of one.

Julie

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05/02/2007 10:50 AM	Alert
Well, I read this thread and then went out to train but it stayed in my craw ( is that how you spell it?) and I just had to come back and make a comment. This thread and dozens of others with all the problems many of these PL's have always require 'an answer'. (Seminar guys, remember this discussion?) What you have Matt, among other things is a young inexperienced dog trained far more in the retreiver stuff, and darned early at that, and less exposed to the real birds in the field. I understand budget constraints, time constraints, knowledge constraints and all of that aspect to training. Nonetheless it takes a lot of TIME to train a good upland dog, and the pointer guys know this better than anybody. Nobody's method out of the real honest to gosh pointer guys, solves development and immaturity problems with 'an answer'. The last 3 dogs I titled last year were a 4 time and two 2.5 time Grand Masters. Not that that is such a big deal, but the story of those three dogs at your dogs age would make you laugh. Sage, was a wild maniac. She'd point extremely well, but it wouldn't be anywhere you might particularly want. And when the bird moved, the flash of movement was so quick you almost couldn't see her. However as a mature dog she is as close to perfection as I've seen. You don't even have to see her to know she's pointing and she'll be pointing still when ever you locate her. Rosie at a year or year and a half could catch a planted bird, or insisted on moving if the bird did. Now, she is exactly like Sage, she even points when she's in the water... (Shawn do you have that picture from this weekend?). Nala used to catch birds and do all kinds of poorly mannered things on birds and it was hard to get her to understand how to be a bit more ladylike. Now she's rock solid. It happens. Not with lots of caught birds, everyone knows that. But it takes huge amounts of time and patience and hours in the field. No matter whose system of training you are using or what advice you get. That's why all these 'solutions' only work for a little while and the problem returns. Training these dogs isn't a result of the correct methodology and the right gizmos in the field. You have to go at your dogs pace and the birds pace and Natures pace and if you don't, you'll be fighting this forever.

Jere

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05/02/2007 2:01 PM	Alert
Posted By Julie on 05/02/2007 10:50 AM ... It [steadyness] happens. Not with lots of caught birds, everyone knows that [is bad]. But it takes huge amounts of time and patience and hours in the field. No matter whose system of training you are using or what advice you get. That's why all these 'solutions' only work for a little while and the problem returns. Training these dogs isn't a result of the correct methodology and the right gizmos in the field. You have to go at your dogs pace and the birds pace and Natures pace and if you don't, you'll be fighting this forever. I edited the quote segment above a little, Julie, to be sure I know what it says. Say so if I'm wrong. Bill Gibbons says it also, to the effect "You can't push on a string. A dog can only progress at it's own pace." Still there are things that can be done early on to make future life easier for the dog and the trainer. I mentioned this on the other site earlier this year while I was traveling. I was accused of taking the material I referenced out of context (I did not, but haven't bothered to respond fully.). Discussion was not forthcoming. I typed out some material on this concept as it might apply to PLs but decided not to post it now... I'm waiting to see the new book. Then I will decide what, if anything, to do/say along these lines. Jere

Julie

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05/02/2007 3:45 PM	Alert
Still there are things that can be done early on to make future life easier for the dog and the trainer. I wholeheartedly agree with that. My concern is that people believe if you go out and do 'such and such' with a young dog it will become steady and therefore confident. I bet you and I and Gibbons and West and Smith and Gould and about anyone else having had to produce the final product would concur. Confidence is a big part of this game and you don't make that happen, or push that string as you noted. Problem prevention is necessary; but dogs mature into good dogs with the right training. I haven't seen a young finished pointing Lab and it looks as if I likely never will. I've seen young trained ones, but not that symphony thing that I assume is the goal.

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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05/02/2007 4:09 PM	Alert
julie you just knocked out my post by sending at the same time, and it took me like 45 minutes to write!!!! ahhhhhhh.... thats ok, you make up for it. hmmmm, let me start again:

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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05/02/2007 4:25 PM	Alert
Thanks a lot for the replies guys. I did not mean to start the same thread that I already started at least twice before in the recent months - this was really meant to be anecdotal. But, due to the wondefully thoughtful responses that I have received, once again, I feel compelled to engage. Julie: I don't know how to apply "go at your dogs pace and the birds pace and Natures pace" to my situation. I will take all the time in the world that I need to for this dog, but do you mean that I should: A) try to take my time and work slowly with pigeons, attempting to minimize catches (but expecting some) or B) wait until I have good birds (in 13 weeks when I hopefully still have some chuckar alive)? You are right that stella has seen lots of retrieving work. This is largely a function of my inability to find good birds, and filling in the "down-time" with retrieving work. Well, the "time without good birds" has become significantly longer than expected, so the retrieving work has advanced significantly farther than expected. Since she IS so young, I try to keep everything very positive, especially the "tough stuff". For example: when she cheats the bank, I ignor the akc veteran next to me telling me to hit the juice, and simply blow a stop whistle and recast her. Then I praise the hell outta her when she does it right. They tell me that I praise too much and throw too many happy bumpers; I tell them thats why she loves the game so much and why they love to watch her so much Even in this positive atmosphere, I have felt too much control creeping up in preparation for our last HT - so we took the last week and 1/2 off!!!! first vacation ever! I now will only do retrieving stuff 3-4 days a week, [planned on] upland stuff for 2-3 days, and leave one day for frolick and fun. I am not going to teach her any new concepts for the next couple months, but just firm up the stuff she already knows so we can continue to pick up senior ribbons. I don't want to look back and say that I rushed her too much, but I know thats probably what you're already thinking... and perhaps I will. thanks for the concern.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Julie

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05/02/2007 7:54 PM	Alert
Anybody reading this who has reached a point in their life at which they are honestly 'good' at something knows that it came with a number of factors. You don't become a really good accountant until you've been schooled and after schooling practicing a lot of accounting; encountering all kinds of situations, needs, circumstances, etc. After some years, you begin to become someone accomplished at what you do. It doesn't matter what your IQ is (within reason) or what school you went to or how clever you are. Time at the helm is what it takes to make you become the one who can make what needs to happen - happen. That is true for people who are doctors or nurses, parents, spouses, plumbers, farmers, engineers or embroiderers. I have never understood why we don't allow the same learning curve for our animals. No good cutting horse starts that way, until it has been schooled and then had lots of calf experience, no seeing eye dog becomes one quickly, and no retriever is really good at doing real life retrieves until many aspects of that dog have developed and come together in a way that makes the whole endeavor work well. It certainly holds true for pointing as well. Pointing isn't something a dog does and then gets refined, controlled and results in a confident, effective bird locating dog. It evolves the same as every thing else, at the dog's pace. some are more rapid, some not so much. Some have all kinds of other issues that creep into the upland field and some don't carry too many. The retrieving side of things can help or hurt and it varies with dog and varies with training program and varies with trainer. Time is necessary for your dog to put all this in the right context. It doesn't follow books, programs or well intentioned advice, any more than any of us fit the average for whatever we are. I took a while to figure some dog things out, others did it faster, others will never get there. No one can tell any of us exactly how to go about this. There is a balance that needs to be maintained in these dogs, and lopsided training produces lopsided results. Hurried training 'stick's things on but they don't stay. Jere is the whiz on training with pigeons, look up his references on that, but get your girl on birds she can't catch and allow her to morph into a real pointing dog without too much help...

Alex
Osakis, MN

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05/02/2007 8:38 PM	Alert
Great post Julie!

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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05/02/2007 9:14 PM	Alert
10-4 Julie! Think I'll ease up on the pigeons and try to get her into some wild grouse (although that makes it **** near impossible to see what happens, but that really doesn't matter at this point). I think running around searching for them will help raise the upland side of the balance - whether I can see her point or not. Thanks again for your time. I will try to make it up to you by selling as many books as possible - I've already got a few non-retriever folks who want one just for the puppy section!

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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05/02/2007 9:24 PM	Alert
Not to belabor this, but - this just occured to me. While I thought that my balance for the last couple months has been completely tipped towards retrieving, maybe not so much. We usually spend at least an hour or two daily walking through the woods. She basically does whatever she wants, including seaking out and finding all kinds of animals: turkeys, grouse, deer, etc. While the number of bird exposures is certainly pretty low - isn't it this kind of activity (freely exploring the field and learning to choose her own path and seek out game through all sorts of obstacles) that the upland work is really trying to accomplish (well, besides the actual pointing aspect)? If so... then it seems like a lack of true bird exposure could be somewhat compensated by more of these freelance romps through various types of cover. I know there is no substitute for good birds, but if I can't do that, maybe I should just expose her to as many different environments as possible, and let her learn to search through them?

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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05/02/2007 9:59 PM	Alert
Matt, you're thinking like a person Freelance romps in the woods are great, but dogs need exposure to birds (and lots of it) in order to know what to do with birds. The more natural that exposure, the more your dog will learn. It takes birds to make a bird dog-no shortcuts will work. You will have to find birds, or buy them, or raise them-and be prepared for lots of them to get away-in order for your dog to have the kind of exposure she needs-she has to bump enough birds that fly away to make her want to stop and point them so she can check them out longer. The more she catches birds, the longer this will take (speaking from experience here!). Dog training is an investment-in time, in effort and in birds. Can you raise some quail and turn some loose in your woods before your walk every day? If you raise them in a johnny house, some might "recycle"...or you could do that with pigeons if you had to...

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

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