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Author Messages Oldest First Newest First cartbird Westland, MI Advanced Online Status: Posts:412 04/24/2007 1:38 PM Alert  Someone please tell me what you would do for this probem. I send the dog to the back pile. If I stop the dog, the next time I send she does not want to go. I have tried nick, boot in the a$$, grabing collar resending. Nothing works. What do I do. Association of the MM, And proud member of team RUN-N-GUN Cart's Island Labs MPR HR Cart's Island Muddy Banks [member-Black Pack] APR HR Cart's Island Gauge JH Cart's Island Tigs Perfect Storm of HRK (Breeze) Cart's Island Roscos Peco Train www.trulifetaxidermyartistry.com keskam Pierce, Colorado Master Online Status: Posts:990 04/24/2007 2:16 PM Alert  Maybe simplify? Bring it in closer? When I would have a no go I would move up 10 feet and send again, If another no go move up again, until I got what I wanted then backed up to were I was before. No professional but thats what I did!! HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa Jay Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!! Master Online Status: Posts:622 04/24/2007 2:26 PM Alert  Just to clarify, have you done FF, and what stage are you at? Are you working on Force To Pile (FTP), or just trying to get the dog to go to a back pile? How much work have you done with the actual word "Back" in the concept of fetch? What's your distance? I believe that most trainers go FF, walking fetch, stick fetch (some do, some don't), FTP, force to back. Each step is really needed to build upon itself. FF gets the understanding of fetch into the dogs head, walking fetch makes the dog start thinking about running forward to get the bumper, stick fetch throws in a distraction, FTP really gets the idea of running to fetch, force to back gets the idea on the "back" command. I know that this is tough to figure out (I always hated hearing this), look at your dog and see what it is telling you. Example, you are sending the dog, and it takes it. The next time you send it, you stop it mid stream with an automatic correction for the sit command, and then send it. The time after that you stop it again, and it won't budge. Is the dog not going because he doesn't understand the back command, or because it's afraid of another correction of sit? In the dogs eyes, it may be more worried about the sit than the back command. It's your job to TEACH what is expected. A correction is only needed when a principle is fully understood, not when you need to get a lesson learned. In this case, you could easily simplify (ever heard that before ). Go to the dog, maybe give a little pat on the head (works better than you think), and give a "fetch" from a close distance. If that doesn't work, get the bumper out of your pocket (always carry one!), and give it a toss to the back pile. Then give a back command. That usually does the trick. If it doesn't, you may need to revisit some FF issues, keeping the distance down and building back up. Dogs get floored by distance, so keep that in mind. You may also need to simply keep the stop and sit sequence down, with more full distance back commands thrown in. This will help keep the lesson balanced while still teaching what you want. Keep an open mind as to what the dog is telling you, and be patient if it is telling you something different than what you want. If you keep harping on sit, and then it won't go, expect a little reluctance and work through it with a little bit of acceptance. It's hard to explain in writing, and I still suck at it I'm just trying to relate what I have learned over the past couple of months, so take it for what it is. Of course, if you didn't do the previous steps correctly, then you need to go way back before building to this anyways. Of course, I may be way off base. Jay There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness. GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest cartbird Westland, MI Advanced Online Status: Posts:412 04/24/2007 3:31 PM Alert  There has been NO correction on the sit. She does that just fine. It is when I send her again to the back pile she does not want to go. I had another training section and just did the back with no stopping her and shortend them up ( 40 yards).She will go as long as there are no stops half way. We have been working this for at least 2 months. She was very hard to FF. That took 3 months on the table. This is my first time training a lab. She seems to be very hard headed but she has the drive of a bull Association of the MM, And proud member of team RUN-N-GUN Cart's Island Labs MPR HR Cart's Island Muddy Banks [member-Black Pack] APR HR Cart's Island Gauge JH Cart's Island Tigs Perfect Storm of HRK (Breeze) Cart's Island Roscos Peco Train www.trulifetaxidermyartistry.com KwickLabs Roscoe, IL Master Online Status: Posts:680 04/24/2007 4:15 PM Alert  Have you done any three-handed casting? Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected" cartbird Westland, MI Advanced Online Status: Posts:412 04/25/2007 5:32 AM Alert  yes, On overs she will come to me some and over Association of the MM, And proud member of team RUN-N-GUN Cart's Island Labs MPR HR Cart's Island Muddy Banks [member-Black Pack] APR HR Cart's Island Gauge JH Cart's Island Tigs Perfect Storm of HRK (Breeze) Cart's Island Roscos Peco Train www.trulifetaxidermyartistry.com KwickLabs Roscoe, IL Master Online Status: Posts:680 04/25/2007 7:05 AM Alert  Do a review of three-handed casting using only two bumpers. ”Three-handed Casting – “Two Bumper Review” (Link)” Work on re-defining the "back" cast by "chaining" it with the "fetch". That means when you throw the bumper to the back position you say "fetch/back". Keep doing that until you can just drop the "fetch part" of the command. Now he should have been sitting in front of you and getting quite a few repetitions of going to the "back" bumper. Now move to a simple "back" pile (more than one bumper). Continue to identify it by throwing a bumper over his head to the pile, then casting "back". The next step is to force him to that pile from the remote sit (facing you). This means to cast him "back" and once he is in motion give him a verbal "back" then a nick (not major but enough to register) "back". Do this when he is in full motion toward the bumpers. If he does anything else except speed up you need to adjust what you are doing by simplifying. Don't try to make him go faster by upping the e-collar stimulation. I am assuming he has been collar conditioned to know how to respond to a taught command by making the right choice to turn off pressure. Give him "feebies", too...and don't over do this. Now you have given him plenty of repetitions from the remote position which can become the apex of a mini-T. Put out some over piles, move close to the apex and cast him to the back pile from your side by identifying the pile. Once he is going well from your side, start stopping him at the apex once in awhile. Move back a bit and sit him at the apex facing you and cast back. Leave the side piles out there and do not cast to them. One thing to remember here is to decide how many bumpers your dog can pick up in one session. Some dogs will go until they drop, but as soon as you see a hint of the dog starting to slow down, loose style and tell you this is becoming a chore, you need to stop the lesson and wait until the next session. You can't allow this to turn into unpleasant work. Keep it fun, and there is nothing wrong with being an animated, happy cheerleader. Now start sending him from your side while again identifying the pile. Once in awhile stop him at the apex, move up and cast him back. Force him again a few times (again with a low back-nick-back). Once you are satisfied with his response to the back cast after sitting on the whistle, identify an over pile, move up and cast him to it. However, make sure you do more full "backs" without a stop than overs, and only introduce one side pile at a time. Go slow and don't try too many different things in one session. Repetition of each step over several days will be quicker than trying to hack through too much from the "get go". Teaching slowly is much faster than "hacking fast". What I have described will take several days of short lessons learning one component at a time. Keep the lessons short, positive and fun. The dog needs repetition and time to assimilate what you are teaching. Keep your training balanced by incorporating marks during the regular scheme of training. Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"
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