franken_jj
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| 04/22/2007 3:05 PM |
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| Hey,
I'm looking for some advice on the best way to train a lab to point. My dog will point and hold a point, but it seems to depend on whether or not the birds are sitting tight. Early on in the season with warm weather, the birds weren't sitting tight at all, then later in the season the birds would sit tight and she would point. I've never really trained for pointing, so I was wondering what the best method would be to get Belle to point in all conditions on all birds! |
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Jere
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| 04/22/2007 5:16 PM |
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Your Lab. already points. You couldn't train it to if your life depended on it. But, the good news is what you need to do now is train some bird handling manners. I used the West system to train manners on birds with my PLs. I'll use it again with my next PLs or any pointing breed dog I may get. Of course, I judge it to be "the best." Others will disagree as is usual.
The group at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pointingdogs is active, has a bunch of material on the system in the Files archive and professionals and experienced amateurs using the system daily ready and willing to help neophytes through any difficulties.
There are some videos available but they are not fully edited commercial quality productions.
The archive of posts at http://www.uplandbirddog.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=4 has thread after thread discussing the method. Use the search function and search for Maurice, Bruce, West, Gibbons, silent, ...
Dave Walker's new book, "The Bird Dog Training Manual," http://www.davewalkerdogs.com , describes a method based on West which Dave has developed over the years since he started with the system under Bill West and Bill Gibbons. I understand it is a bit different - he uses a verbal "whoa" for instance, where most other practitioners do not. I haven't seen the book myself. I guess I'd better buy a copy if I'm going to mention it like this...
You don't say where you are or what specie birds you're talking about. It may be that running birds will turn out to be a challenge requiring special attention and you'll want to be careful not to stifle the dog's natural tendency to self-relocate on moving birds.
Have fun.
Jere |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 04/23/2007 6:01 AM |
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I disagree  I use the Knutsons (gunclub-labs.com) new program, and have had great success.
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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franken_jj
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| 04/23/2007 10:48 AM |
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| Sorry I forgot to mention bird type, I hunt pheasant in Iowa! |
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Jere
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| 04/23/2007 12:11 PM |
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I'm told the yahoo group link I posted does not work.
I see I left out a group/ before the pointingdogs. I edited that post to reflect the correct link. It is below too.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pointingdogs/
Use that one.
Jere |
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Jere
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| 04/23/2007 12:13 PM |
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Jay, I feel at a disadvantage here as I have not seen Julies new program. I wonder though, how long have you been using it and on how many dogs?
jere |
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 04/23/2007 12:17 PM |
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Jere, those of us unlucky enough to have not attended the KY seminar are all at a disadvantage!  I will say, though, that I bought the puppy section online when it came out, and things happened with Churchill that didn't happen with Wyatt...
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 04/23/2007 12:52 PM |
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To each his (or her) own Jere. He asked for opinions, and that is what I gave him. Why try to discredit one way over another by pointing out the limitations of the trainer? Each method has worked for hundreds, if not thousands of dogs, does it matter how many I have trained to it. His dog is doing exactly what mine was doing, and I fixed it by using this new program. So, it works, I've done it. That is what I was offering to him.
It may also be noted that it depends on what you want out of your dog. There are huge differences in training needs when comparing upland only and upland/retriever work. I require that my dog does both, and the last time that I checked West didn't train any retrieving.
You are right though, you are at a disadvantage.  The new book is great, and has really opened my eyes to "teaching" a dog how to do something, rather than forcing it to. This thinking has really helped me to become a better trainer, and that is what a newbie like myself should try to do.
Yes, I said "newbie"....are ya happy now?
Jay
MPR APR HR Tornado Allie
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
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Jere
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| 04/23/2007 1:15 PM |
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I didn't try, Jay, and discredit one way over the other. I respect Julie as a trainer considerably, we've had some interesting and candid email exchanges over the years. (That reminds me, I should have emailed her about one of her recent posts. It was a classic. She'll read this and know what I'm talking about.) And, I anxiously look forward to seeing her new book. I may even buy a copy of this one.
Yes, the professional West method trainers who have worked with PLs have not generally trained advanced retriever game skills. More than one amateur has used the method on his own PLs and have also trained retrieving protocols. I believe one I know has had success in the retriever hunt test game. I am sure it is feasible.
We're all "newbies," Jay (whether we admit it to ourselves or not.) When I stop learning, I hope it is because I died.
Jere |
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Jere
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| 04/23/2007 1:26 PM |
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Posted By franken_jj on 04/23/2007 10:48 AM
Sorry I forgot to mention bird type, I hunt pheasant in Iowa!
Running roosters are a problem with any pointing dog.
It is interesting that you encountered this "problem" early in the season. Most pheasant hunters seem to agree it manifests most severely during late season when the young of the year have mostly been killed off and the smarter birds of that cohort and those which have survived a winter or more begin to be dominant in the population.
There was some discussion earlier in this forum or the other active pointinglabs forum on this subject. There were some promising approaches discussed.
I suggest a search of the archives before we start a major discussion.
Jere |
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ahayes
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| 04/23/2007 3:29 PM |
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Jay is the new book out? I have visited Julie's web page and I haven't seen it listed. Thanks>
Al
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 04/23/2007 4:04 PM |
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I heard a rumor (or am I starting it ;) )that since the Colorado APLA test is almost in her back yard she is going to have the 1st truckload available at the hunt test all signed and sealed with a Kiss !  |
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keskam
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| 04/23/2007 5:47 PM |
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| I hope you are right 2BDs I would like to get my hands on that book!!!!!!!!! |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 04/23/2007 6:19 PM |
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| Running Roosters- Any more much more the rule....early season late season whenever. Some think that the birds genetics are adapting-since the runners are the survivors that live to breed. This last year accross KS because of weak production there was a higher percentage of 2yr plus birds then usual and the kdwp predicted and was right in saying that even though the numbers were ok the hunting would be tougher....Not sure if Iowa had the same set up or not. But back to the original poster- Sounds to me like your dog was doing exactly what I would want it to do. point em if they are setting and keep the pursuit up if running. |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 04/24/2007 5:40 AM |
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Unfortunately it is not. The ones that made it to her KY seminar got a copy on a disk to review, but no hard bound. I can't wait to get this thing in my hands in a book, because it is awesome! She's changed a lot of her thinking, and is producing better dogs now than ever with this new method. After watching her train, and reading her book, she has truly changed my mindset on training. I no longer think of pure setup layouts, but rather what the dog needs through its actions. Or so I try.
I'm still pumped about that seminar, and that was over a month ago! It was honestly the first seminar that I've been to that I left completely happy, and that's a change.
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
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franken_jj
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| 04/24/2007 6:06 PM |
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| A lot of the running is due in part to warmer temperatures. In Iowa early season can be warm, and the birds seem to like the running ahead where as in late season the tempertures are cooler and usually there is snow on the ground so they sit tighter |
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franken_jj
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| 04/24/2007 6:10 PM |
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| 2 BDG's,
Thanks for the vote of confidence, I've always had that same kinds of philosophy that if the birds running let em chase. After all, it's kind of hard to point a running bird. I just didn't know if I was the only one out there thinkin this way.
JJ |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 04/24/2007 9:54 PM |
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| If the dog is pointing where the bird USED to be, I can guarentee that bird is working to your flank if he has developed nice spurs and then cutting back on you safely down wind. |
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KwickLabs
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| 04/25/2007 8:19 AM |
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"What's the best way to train a pointing lab?"
We will continue to see this topic come up on a regular basis. However, it is a loaded guestion. In general, there are two issues that need to be determined. The first is "What are the long term plans for the pointing Lab?" and the second is "What is the best way to prepare the trainer for the job ahead?"
There are many programs out there that will do a decent job of turning out a good hunting dog, but the curriculum is not the real issue. It's the trainer. The Clint Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" method will not cut it. 
In my own mind, the method that will work the best is the one that demands of the trainer to do what the dog needs. The pressure is on the trainer to do the right thing at the correct time for his specific dog. A program that expects the trainer to be a teacher will be the best choice. Deciding what the dog needs, instead of what the trainer wants, is the best approach.
So, there is one program that I know of that emphasizes the concept of a trainer reaching the mentality of making decisions which are good for the dog in the long run. When you finally read "The Book", training the dog is secondary to figuring out what you must become to be successful with a pointing Lab.
The curriculum is usually the easiest part of training. Nothing will work well unless a teacher is involved. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
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OD
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| 04/25/2007 9:10 PM |
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You can read books, watch videos and go to a hundred seminars. None of those things will train dogs. Teachers train dogs. The good teachers learn to think like a dog. To present and teach concepts the way they process and understand information. You learn to train dogs by training dogs. If you learn to tune in to their level dogs will teach you more than anything you can watch or read.
Nobody ever learned how to become an artists with just concepts or theory from anyone. It is hundreds and thousands of hours using a brush to put paint on a canvas along with applied theory and creativity that makes an artist. Nobody has ever created music that stirs the soul by studying only notes on a page. You wont learn to play by only listening or watching others. It is by getting a feel for the instrument and understanding how to bring the theory into application that you will play music. Paint cant do anything by itself.
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