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| Please Register to post to the American Pointing Labrador Association Forums |
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Jere
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 Online Status: Posts:355

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| 05/31/2007 2:45 PM |
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Posted By 311Hemi on 05/31/2007 2:24 PM Jere, thanks for the response! Mix this up with working the dog totally out of the scent cone of
launchers but surprise the dog when it gets close to the launcher by
launching the bird. Is this best done by moving towards the launcher from the upwind side? How close are we talking?
Think of a circle on the ground with the launcher, or bird, at the center.. Now draw a line through the bird perpendicular to the wind direction. The half circle on the side of the bird from which the wind is coming is the upwind side or upwind half circle. The other half circle is the downwind side.
For the stop to flush work you want to be on the upwind side. You don't have to work directly towards the bird at all, you can work cross wind so the dog passes close to the bird. How close? This can be pretty variable. Start so the dog passes less than ten feet away, but working up to thirty feet away will be OK too. As long as the dog is close enough that it readily is aware of the flush (wing noise) you're not too far away. The dog will initially display a natural response to the bird's flush. If it is to stop and watch the bird fly - great. Quickly get close to the dog and shorten the CC, so you can prevent it from chasing. As it stands give it a little praise, like "good dog" and a gentle finger stroke down the back or light hand pat on the side of the chest. Otherwise you need to shorten the lead and get close, make the dog stand and when it is still go through with the praise etc. You're trying to make the dog's first response to a nearby flushing bird stop and stand still.
More than one launcher can be set up relatively close to one another. Launch one and after the dog has stopped or been stopped launch another. Waiting until the dog may get fidgety to launch the second will pay off too.
One caution, air does not always move certainly the way the wind blows - it swirls and eddies around. If the wind is very light or very strong this can be an issue. If the dog detects the bird while your in the upwind half-circle you'll have to treat the experience as a bird encounter rather than a stop to flush exercise. Watch the dog for signs that it smells the bird scent.
One other note. After the dog stops or is stopped or has pointed and held AND the bird has flown away, you must release the dog from point or stand. I do this with a light finger tap on the top of the head and a verbal OK (I like to be able to release the dog from, for instance, across a stream or canyon verbally)
jere
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keskam Pierce, Colorado
Master

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| 05/31/2007 5:41 PM |
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Actually Jake has been hanging aroung Garys GSP G-man!! Jake is doing everything that his GSP does He enters the scent cone and WHAM he is on point no creeping no tail wagging, no head moving , Just a hard focused point Gary said last night he would have past the Masters upland test!! Jay I would never stop the dog(whoa ) before he is on point!!(although at the APR test with satin she went on point then started to move and guess what came out of my mouth??(WHOA) sSo I had to pull her off the bird And that was hard) I have 2 tapes from Pointer trainers that show this method of whoaing the dog. Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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Jere
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| 06/01/2007 2:38 AM |
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Posted By keskam on 05/31/2007 5:41 PM ...(although at the APR test with satin she went on point then started to move and guess what came out of my mouth??(WHOA) sSo I had to pull her off the bird And that was hard) I have 2 tapes from Pointer trainers that show this method of whoaing the dog. ...Kevin
Kevin, that's why a free roll of duct tape comes with materials describing some pointing dog trainers' methods . Just kidding, of course, but the admonition against using the "whoa" command or saying anything to the dog on point IS freely given.
BTW and FWIW about that old thing about setting the dog back after it has broken point ... After training a thousand or so pointing dogs Bill Gibbons learned it makes no difference in the time it takes to steady the dog - waste of time.
Jere
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KwickLabs Roscoe, IL
Master

 Online Status: Posts:680

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| 06/01/2007 10:57 AM |
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| That's interesting Jere. The pro running the transition group in the seminar I attended last week stated that training research had data suggesting any correction (for known bahavior infractions) given later than 1.3 seconds (on average) after a mistake was a waste of time.
The point was made that to be effective corrections must be almost immediate and very precise. It could prove difficult to consistently get to a breaking/creeping pointer and set him back in place in less than 2 seconds. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected" |
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Jere
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| 06/01/2007 2:26 PM |
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Posted By KwickLabs on 06/01/2007 10:57 AM That's interesting Jere. The pro running the transition group in the seminar I attended last week stated that training research had data suggesting any correction (for known bahavior infractions) given later than 1.3 seconds (on average) after a mistake was a waste of time.
The point was made that to be effective corrections must be almost immediate and very precise. It could prove difficult to consistently get to a breaking/creeping pointer and set him back in place in less than 2 seconds.
Jim,
1. Yes, I believe the research cited was done years ago by the US Army. It did suggest a time line which argues for very quick corrections, perhaps even sub-second.
So you agree that setting the dog back is a waste of time and are supplying reference to data supporting Bill Gibbons' finding?
2. The way I train manners on birds, the dog is responsible for all dog/bird interactions until I flush the bird or command the dog to do so. Dog movement prior to that time is allowed for self-relocation purposes any time the dog loses scent contact with the bird. Differing styles of relocation are adopted by different dogs, though sometimes an astute observer can tell by the dog body language whether the dog is creeping to flush or moving to relocate. So, since it is not possible for most people to wire themselves into the dog's brain and tell when the dog has lost contact with the bird - certainly I can not - I adopt the position that the only crime the dog can commit is to flush the bird on purpose. So, at the instant the dog flushes the bird (or as soon as possible after, which is very soon)the dog is corrected for flushing in the manner described.
Bill Gibbons takes a slightly differing view. His rule is: the dog must remain steady AFTER the handler moves forward of the dog's shoulder on his way to flush the bird. He corrects for any motion AFTER that time. If the dog is still in the checkcord (CC)only phase of development he uses the CC for correction, later the EC. Generally only very low level corrections are required. High level correction of a dog on birds before the flush tend to be counterproductive as described above. This protocol is derived from the rules of some pointing dog trial/testing venues.
Maurice Lindley's approach is more like mine.
You pays you money, makes your choice. My experience with PLs vs pointers has suggested to me the safer route to take with a PL is that I have adopted.
In any case, the correction for the "known behavior infraction" is as instantaneous as the reaction time of the trainer allows. I do not knowingly correct for a "mistake."
Does that help?
Jere
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keskam Pierce, Colorado
Master

 Online Status: Posts:990

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| 06/01/2007 4:26 PM |
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Jere,When we put a bird out to whoa the dogs on the road or in cover the dog is either on a checkcord or has the e-collar on,With the checkcord while the dog is on point I slowly move up on him until I am beside him. And if he moves the correction is imediate! And he is lifted and brought back to the same place, Same with the collar(Low level) So I disagree, this way has helped Jake tremendously!! And Jere I do use duct tape quite often !!!!! Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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Jere
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| 06/01/2007 8:26 PM |
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Kevin, until you try it both ways with several dogs you have no grounds on which to base disagreement. Both ways (just stopping the dog and stopping then setting back) "work." Bill says setting back does not speed the steadying process over just stopping.
All I'm doing is passing on some of the finer points of the game from the hard earned experience of a 30 year veteran pointing dog trainer who has trained between 2 and 3 thousand dogs (including 14 Labs.) manners on birds. He's made FCs including National Champions of at least two breeds and achieved many FT placements. You won't find that experience in any books. You wouldn't find it here but Bill is an exceedingly generous person and he told me to go out into the world (so to speak) and show folks what he does. I don't know any other group of dog trainers as free with their experience and techniques as the West sytem trainers, especially Maurice and Bill. I took Bill at his word and try and share what I saw and learned whenever it seems appropriate. Sometimes I get more doo doo over it than it's worth.
Jere |
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keskam Pierce, Colorado
Master

 Online Status: Posts:990

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| 06/01/2007 8:34 PM |
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Ahh. What a differance a month makes!!! From failing the upland in the APLA April 28 at 10 months old to Pointing and Steading to Master qualities at 11 months (whoaing on birds and useing the launchers) Here is three picks!! |



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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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keskam Pierce, Colorado
Master

 Online Status: Posts:990

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| 06/01/2007 9:02 PM |
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No Jere,I disagreed to what you said to Jim (SO YOU AGREE THAT SETTING THE DOG BACK IS A WASTE OF TIME) That has worked well with Jake You cant believe what we have accomplished in 1 month!! All I know is I am very teachable and always open to different ways, If I trained satin the way I train Jake she would be no good for anything! She has a totally different personality then Jake. Therefore different techiniques are used with her, I think it is the same with trainers, I am sure what worked for that pointing trainer worked very well for him, were as other pros do something just alittle bit different!! But still they get the same result. There are always new and better ways to accomplish a task, and I believe the same in training. In 5 years you could be FF your dog with a computer! Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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Jere
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| 06/01/2007 9:32 PM |
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Yes, Kevin, different dogs have different personalities and lots of different methods "work."
I liken Bill's discovery to the data Jim quoted. Doing the several thousand dogs he found - either no difference in the time to "break" a pointing dog by setting back after correction for breaking point or longer - not sure which. There's another nuance he uses others do not, but I'm having a slight memory block as to which is faster and which just a "waste of time" in the sense that it does not shorten the overall time.
Maybe nothing else would have worked with that dog of yours but I doubt it. I suspect simply correcting the "break" and making him stand where he ended up would have been just as effective as setting him back to where he had been after the correction. It is impossible to tell with only one dog whether setting back is more or less effective than not . One month from raw virgin pup to staunch pointer is pretty quick. But I guess that's not what you claimed. How long did you work before failing that test? Do I detect a slight motion of the tail in your first two pictures? I take it you train sit to flush? Still you are to be congratulated. I wish you had videoed the training.
I hope this point is clear now. I'm not looking for argument. Just trying to help folks.
Jere |
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keskam Pierce, Colorado
Master

 Online Status: Posts:990

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| 06/02/2007 5:21 AM |
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Jere, With training over 30 years Bill would have several ways to fix a problem in a dog! As for myself I started this quest 2 years ago! So I am very limited in different ways to fix things, the vast knowledge just isint there yet!! As for Jake no tail movement just droped alittle when I walked in front of him (antisapation of the bird maybe) That point was probably close to a minute And we were working with all of this before the test but he wasnt there yet at the test (now he is maturing,thinking). At the test I said hunt em up!! And he did it all with out me!! Totally blew me off no cooperation whatsoever And I cannot take all the credit Gary Buys works with him(and me) in his training. Jake is like a golf ball! if I aim of just slightly in his training he ends up way of the mark, that is why I have Gary, he doesnt let Jake have an inch or me!!! Kevin Ahh and Jere, I see you fixed your 40+ responces |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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Jere
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| 06/02/2007 12:36 PM |
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Posted By keskam on 06/02/2007 5:21 AM  ... Ahh and Jere, I see you fixed your 40+ responces 
Yes, Kevin, that was a ROYAL PIA!!!! I was at my youngest daughter's house using an unfamiliar laptop. I don't know whether the mousepad is ultra sensitive or what - at any rate, as you witnessed, it seemed to submit a reply as I was typing everytime I hit the space bar. I didn't find out about that until I actually submitted a reply. UGHHH.
Maybe this is a good place to say a few more things about the issue of the post you "disagreed" with.
Actually, the "setting back" is not a correction - leastwise not in my analysis of the overall picture.
The correction comes when the breaking dog is stopped by checkcord or by EC. After the correction; some folks move the dog back to the spot where it was standing or pointing when it broke (some lead it, most physically pick it up by collar and tail and carry it - I don't like picking a heavy dog (eg Lab.) up by the tail for obvious reasons you'll understand when you feel the joints of the tail stretching under the strain some day), stand it there in the stand or "whoa" pose, going through their normal ritual for such, release it and proceed; others, as I've said, have found this does not speed the steadying process, simply stand the dog where it stops and proceed from there. But, there is more to it.
The setting back or standing in place is more of the nature of a "show pup," a repetition of a teaching move, a demonstration of what the trainer wants the dog to have continued before it broke; than a "correction" (punishment) following an infraction.
Now think on this whole scenario a little.
If the dog was pointing when it broke there is no way we can interact with the dog to replicate a "point." Points are innate, reflexive behaviors of the dog triggered by interaction with a bird and are to always be between the dog and the bird and that's the way we want to keep it.
All we can do is make the dog stand motionless - as in the trained response to the verbal "whoa" or, in the West silent system, the special CC or EC input that elicites a stand.
So, what we need to do is allow the dog to do something that (in the overall scheme of "manners on birds") calls for "stand" as the proper response. If we do not allow the dog to flush the bird (the proper response to flushing bird is always STAND, whether the flush is a wild flush or the flush of a pointed bird - I assume we expect steady to wing though many hunters do not) before we correct it, we have to be correcting for failure to stand according to some other rule. One possible rule is the one I mentioned before - dog is to remain pointing until handler passes dog's shoulder and from there on dog may stand. If that is one's rule - i.e. part of the whole sequence of behaviors one defines to be his concept of "manners on birds" - then it makes sense to correct the dog for movement AFTER handler passes dog and before bird flushes (either by virtue of dog action or handler action) and to set the dog back to the spot where it should have remained STANDING and stand it there. But, setting back does not speed the overall process.
If one wants the dog to point bird(s) until birds flush or dog loses location contact with bird (bird moves on ground for instance)and only then transition to a stand (or relocate point on a moved bird), then it makes sense to allow the breaking dog to flush the bird before any correction (stop with CC or EC) and then to stand the dog where it is stopped.
Well defined rules of behavior, consistent interpretation of and insistence on adherance to them and fair treatment of infractions makes for rapid learning and a happy dog excelling at his job and looking great doing it.
That's how National Champions are made (on top of the gene package, of course).
Clear as mud?
Does anyone appreciate all this stuff I'm writing here? Some folks now on this forum sent nastigrams a few years ago when I tried to explain this stuff on the other site..., Just wondering.
Jere |
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2Blackdogs! Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
Grand Master

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| 06/02/2007 1:23 PM |
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Good Stuff Jere. Good Stuff.
Kevin- Hard to believe thats the same dog that covered all 100 acres of the 5 acre CP test in Co!  |
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keskam Pierce, Colorado
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 Online Status: Posts:990

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| 06/02/2007 2:03 PM |
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| Good stuff Jere!!!Thank you. Steve thats him! he is growing up! Garys suggestion was when I say hunt em up, Let him hunt alittle then I blow a sit whistle, go up to him and say hunt em up again. It has given him the idea that we are doing this TOGETHER something he didnt reconize at the test!! Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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Jere
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| 06/02/2007 2:35 PM |
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Posted By keskam on 06/02/2007 2:03 PM ... It has given him the idea that we are doing this TOGETHER something he didnt reconize at the test!! Kevin
Kevin, I realize the environment of a hunt test is a real chalenge for a green dog.
I have to wonder how much of "The Walk" type stuff you were able to do with Jake before you went to testing what with it being deep winter most of his life up to then? That's where some of us try and develop that special cooperative relationship with the dog (and A WHOLE LOT of other subtle stuff happens too.).
I'm not taking exception with Gary's advice in any way. You might find that remote sit whistle useful too if you ever have to deal with real smart wild running rooster pheasants that the dog tracks (head down) through thick grass cover at 'a hundred miles an hour' only to have the bird flush well out of range.
Jere
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keskam Pierce, Colorado
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| 06/02/2007 3:48 PM |
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Jere, Alot of it was probably my fault!! We did alot of walks but at 4 months old we would go hunting and I would try to keep him on a check cord, but would end up just letting him hunt without it and he would go find him a bird point it then proceed to flush and chase. I was amazed at his ability not only to find the bird but to mark the landing some 300 to 400 yards at 4 months old, and get the bird up again I think he became alittle independent then, And I would always say we will fix that with OB and FF. So again I take the blame for screwing him up but man there is nothing like watching raw talent like what he has, Especially at 4 months of age, Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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mattkeenan Salem, OR
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 Online Status: Posts:184

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| 06/05/2007 9:48 AM |
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I just converted my manual bird launcher to a remote-control unit. I used spare parts from old deer-capture equipment - basically an Remote control car transmitter, receiver, and servo (the little motor that turns the wheels). the electronics are all housed in a weather-proof outdoor power-outlet box. holes are drilled in the side of the box for the antenna and "puller" wire to trigger the device. See attached photos.
Major downfall = large remote control that only controls one device. Major benefit = 1) $10 total cost in hardware - given that you have a manual launcher, bow release, and remote control car electronics (About $130 new) -- but see other threads on this forum about electronics for home-made wingers... I bet they would work great... much smaller and capable of serving multiple units... and probably cheaper!!
2) great range -- up to a mile with modern R/C electronics. and the obvious ability to launch the bird whenever you want from wherever you want.
Oh, and that "30 good bird encounters to make up for 1 caught bird" is hogwash. haha, at least for me:
I have been very hesitant to use launchers for "regular" upland work. Jere and Julie (and others) have pretty well convinced me that real, live, uninhibited birds are absolutely the best way to go. But Stella caught too many pigeons that way, and it'll be 2 months before my chuckar are flight-worthy, so I had to do something.
4 weeks ago - Stella caught two out of 4 planted pigeons. This was after I swore to myself that I would wait until I had good birds before I did more upland work... I guess I thought that if I only "rolled" the birds over a coulpe times (instead of spinning their head), then they would flush quick enough. I was wrong. She has never shown more than a flash-point due to my horrible upland training.
1 week ago - remote launcher used with pigeons. 1st bird flushed. 2nd, 3rd birds - maybe flushed, maybe she never hit the "scent cone" - I've been pretty quick on the trigger. 4th bird: Staunch point from about 12 feet.
yesterday - 1st bird - locked up solid as soon as she hit the cone... 10 - 15 yards away. 2nd bird - probably released before she scented it. 3rd bird - locked up at about 7 yards. Yes, things are looking up in Central PA.
-Matt
PS - Jere, your "extended comments" are always insightful, I only wish I had the time to keep up with all the good knowledge going around this forum. You're just providing your (experienced) $.02 worth. I'm not going to agree with it all, neither is anyone else. But if anyone gets their panties in a bunch over it (not that I've seen that here, all you folks are very gracious and respond well to constructive criticism), they can stop reading it. In the meantime, its helping me to "paint my training picture". Thanks for the time you put in.
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Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com |
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KsGunShopLab Winfield, Ks
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| 06/25/2007 3:47 PM |
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I just returned 2 borrowed DT remote launchers (thanks Steve). As a "newbie", the biggest mistake I made was not launching birds fast enough. It doesn't take a dog long to figure out smell bird... find black box... wait for bird. If you are new to using a launcher, these guys are right about one thing for sure; as soon at your dog gets birdy, launch the bird. That will sure make the dog lock up earlier in the scent cone. My other big problem is making time to get the dog out... The launchers themselves seemed to work great. With my limited experience, I would go with DT should I decide to purchase. |
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oakcreeklabs Moundridge Kansas
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| 06/26/2007 10:59 AM |
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ksgunshop, come on out and I will help you with the finer things for free. It shouldn't take long, however your dog is fairly old so you never know. You are more then welcome to come out and train.
There is some good advice on here, and some that I don't agree with (but that doesn't make it bad advice)
I might write up a rebutal on the subject in a little while when I can concentrate. Off to train and lay forms for my new pad. |
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mattkeenan Salem, OR
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| 02/17/2008 11:02 AM |
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OK, well, I had to leave the remote control airplane electronics in PA when I moved out west here, and I've unfortunately found myself in the sad position of considering going back to a remote bird launcher.... it doesn't seem like we're getting on birds any other way. Here's my question:
What launchers will operate on the TriTronics Pro Control? I know the Zinger Winger Uplander does, but I'm looking for something a bit more affordable. I know the Dogtra's are good too, and that would be my second choice... but I would really like to stick with TriTronics.
Thanks! Matt |
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Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com |
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