KsGunShopLab
Winfield, Ks
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| 04/08/2007 7:25 PM |
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| I'm seriously considering investing in a couple of remote bird launchers. (probably Innotek). Any input out there? |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 04/08/2007 8:24 PM |
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Get the dogtra's! I had innotek, and they were nice, but you couldn't use the electronics on anything else. If you get the dogtras you can pull the receiver off of them and use them on a winger or other duck throwing launcher at a later time, saving a lot of money. You can also find used dogtra remote systems on RTNF often, maybe making it a little cheaper. Just buy some used electronics, then buy the launchers seperatly from someone on here. The dogtra quail size can fit a pigeon, but that's as big as it goes. You would need to get the pheasant size if you want to use chukars.
I know that I shouldn't be using launchers, but I can't find birds that will fly, continually getting caught. My vendors are just not that good, so launchers are my only option. The trick is to launch early! Don't sit around and wait for a point, if the dog is in the scent cone then launch it. You can't be worried about the lost bird, that will result in the dog crowding the launcher. Soon enough that thing will be right on top of the launcher, and you can't get it off. Launch way early to simulate a wild bird, and that's all that you can do. Launchers do not teach the dog how to handle birds, but in my situation I have to use them to teach distance.
Good luck Peggy!!
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
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KsGunShopLab
Winfield, Ks
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| 04/08/2007 8:31 PM |
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| I've been out with her NIGHTLY for the past week trying to shore her up for next weekend. She points for up to 8 seconds then she is jumping and flushing. She's probably not ready to test but it will be good experience for us both. Since I train mostly by myself, I think the extra control would help in my case. My birds are young and she has caught a few... We can get the innotek through one of the gun shop wholesaler's at a reasonably good price was why I was leaning towards it. I see your point if I want to expand in the future. A little more now may be better in the long run. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 04/08/2007 10:17 PM |
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My HRC bought some Innotek launchers......you will not be happy with the electronics.  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 04/09/2007 4:51 AM |
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I just picked up DT systems- They work great. Can't comment on removing the electronics as i have never looked at them with that in mind but I can say they work very nice. The BL-509 included the remote,the BL-505 is less $ and does not have a remote as the one remote can handle like 10
maybe more lauchers. These are sized for quail or pigeons , I used chuckars just fine.Peggy- If you want to borrow mine you can- I am up in kc and
may end up down in wichita tomorrow or wed. on Business. I will send you a pm with # to call me if you want. |
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Jere
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| 04/09/2007 11:00 AM |
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I didn't have any difficulty moving the Innotek receiver/actuator to another device. Maybe they have changed. But, I wouldn't buy another Innotek product.
You folks might get some mileage vis-a-vis using launchers to steady the dog by taking a different approach to what I'm hearing in this thread.
Put the bird in launcher in some cover. Make sure there is a pretty good wind, I'd guess at least 5 mph, 10 may be better. You don't want a lot of eddying. Without going into the details, have the dog under control on checkcord and arrange for it to always be located so it WILL NOT catch any scent from the bird but will pass close to the launcher. When it does so, launch the bird and do whatever you usually do to command and requier the dog to stand. You are training "stop to wild flush" here but you should find that the experience enhances the dog's steadyiness on point. It is all part of the West system which I use to establish "manners on birds.".
What ever you do, don't physically stop the dog in the scent cone before launching the bird.
There is some good info on using launchers in the Files section of the pointingdogs group at Yahoo. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pointingdogs
Jere
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Jere
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| 04/09/2007 11:17 AM |
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If you're getting solid eight second points before the dog breaks to flush, I'd say, depending on the dog's maturity and preparation, you should be on the cusp of having a pretty steady dog.
Jere |
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 04/09/2007 11:43 AM |
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Dogtra all the way.
I fixed mine up so they also shoot a 209 primer when the launcher goes off.
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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Liv2Hnt
Overland Park, KS
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| 04/09/2007 2:00 PM |
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KS Gun Labs.
Im in the same boat. My pup is almost 12 months old and is probably borderline on passing due to his love of getting the birds up himself. I need to get some more bird exposures to reduce the level of excitement he has for birds. Hes got a great drive for retrieving and hunting and I know he will get there, it may just not be this weekend. Hoping for a good tucked in bird and a quick five count. Good luck. I have used a friends DT release one or two times and liked it. I will probably borrow it again this fall to work the steady to flush as referenced above. |
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 04/09/2007 2:50 PM |
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Remember, there is a world of difference between Dogtra and DT Systems.
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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KsGunShopLab
Winfield, Ks
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| 04/09/2007 8:12 PM |
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"Remember, there is a world of difference between Dogtra and DT Systems."
Doc, explain what you mean in short and sweet terms |
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 04/09/2007 8:43 PM |
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Dogtra = Quality at or near that of TriTronics.
D T Systems = I can't be sweet --- and besides, this is a family site.
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 05/29/2007 1:48 PM |
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Jere, I use mine without check cord! if the dog gets to close there goes the bird!! then Blow a sit whistle and let the dog watch the bird(piegon) fly and fly and fly until he cant see it anymore, then go to the next one and boy does that back the dog way up(Backed Jake up to 25 yards on second bird) Shoot I thought he was part GSP, He watched the first bird for about 5 minutes!!! Oh on the second bird he didnt move until the bird was launched 45 seconds!! then he got his retrieve and he was all smiles |
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311Hemi
Mounds View, MN
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| 05/30/2007 8:52 AM |
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Posted By Jere on 04/09/2007 11:00 AM
What ever you do, don't physically stop the dog in the scent cone before launching the bird.
Jere,
What negative outcome will come from this? That smelling the bird will create a negative association (i.e being checked on the cord)?
I did this a week ago in a training session (only two pheasants in launchers) and it seemed to help as before my dog was really busting in on birds after catching at least two on game farms.
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 05/30/2007 6:53 PM |
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Posted By Liv2Hnt on 04/09/2007 2:00 PM
KS Gun Labs.
Im in the same boat. My pup is almost 12 months old and is probably borderline on passing due to his love of getting the birds up himself. I need to get some more bird exposures to reduce the level of excitement he has for birds. Hes got a great drive for retrieving and hunting and I know he will get there, it may just not be this weekend. Hoping for a good tucked in bird and a quick five count. Good luck. I have used a friends DT release one or two times and liked it. I will probably borrow it again this fall to work the steady to flush as referenced above.
You need to reduce his level of excitement he has for birds? Why? That will not make him hold his point any longer He will learn by you not letting him move while he is on point!! Plant a bird take him to the bird on a check cord, when he points move up to him and say whoa if he moves pick him up by the collar and tale and put him right back were he was and say whoa again(repeat if he moves) When he holds point you can say good(softly) so he knows this is what you want!! Kevin
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 05/30/2007 6:59 PM |
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| If you correct/stop the dog in the 'cone' he may associate bad vibes with the scent and begin to look off or avoid the scent to avoid correction. The WHOLE idea behind using one of these is to let the bird escaping be the training mechanism-no stimuli from you-nada. A fast learning dog and or a sensitive (soft) dog will be more likely to pick up a bad habit from handler intervention. |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 05/30/2007 7:58 PM |
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| Steve, No 1 I would never stop the dog in the scent cone period. I agree!! Jake has been whoad on birds and he loses no focus whatsoever on the bird! This plus letting 1 bird fly away has put him out to 25 t 50 yards away from the launcher on point! So the minute he enters the scent cone he is locking up! And that is what they are suppose to do. Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 05/31/2007 5:56 AM |
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Keskam, are you allowing him to go on point before giving the whoa command, or as soon as he enters the scent cone? I think that I know, but want to specify for any newbies around.
I agree with Steve from personal experience. I didn't think that any amount of pressure could ever damper my girl, but I was wrong. Before you know it, the once very stylish dog is flagging. I want the dog to think about nothing but the bird when pointing, and not about what it is supposed to do. That comes from doing the groundwork ahead of time and in a different place, turning steadiness into second nature rather than a thought process. A flyaway bird is more than enough pressure to correct for non-steadiness or a close working dog in this manner.
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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Jere
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| 05/31/2007 1:47 PM |
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Posted By 311Hemi on 05/30/2007 8:52 AM Posted By Jere on 04/09/2007 11:00 AM
What ever you do, don't physically stop the dog in the scent cone before launching the bird.
Jere, What negative outcome will come from this? That smelling the bird will create a negative association (i.e being checked on the cord)? I did this a week ago in a training session (only two pheasants in launchers) and it seemed to help as before my dog was really busting in on birds after catching at least two on game farms.
Two possibilities:
1. The dog will stop and stand as a trained behavior when it smells the bird scent rather than as a natural act (point)when it actually locates the bird.
Note: While most of us prefer the dog to exhibit a natural point when it locates the bird - is certain of the bird location - skittish wild birds may teach the dog it just cannot get that close without flushing the bird (folks who play the launcher game to move the dog back off birds do this too). The result of this is a dog "standing game" well off the birds without certain knowledge of location. The dog will display uncertainty in its body language, it may flag its tail a bit, probably a slow wagging back and forth. Intensity may lag.
2. The dog may associate the physical restraint with the bird and begin "blinking" (avoiding birds). Blinkers can be VERY artful - they readily find birds, know full well where the bird is, but will not point the bird or otherwise reveal its location to the handler.
If you work the beginning dog cross wind into the scent cone pretty close to the bird (maybe about ten feet downwind) so the dog will get a strong shot of scent when it gets into the scent cone it should then turn towards the bird and point or move to flush. The strong scent will help trigger the point. If the dog does not point, watch closely and launch the bird when the dog is quite close and then physically stop the dog as it tries to catch the bird (using CC, hold your hand and arm off to the side so dog hits end of CC and rotates gently to a stop and loses visual contact with the departing bird rather than pulling directly over the dog's back and dumping the dog) you should soon see the dog beginning to point before it will flush the bird. If you start working the dog from downwind towards the bird into ever increasing stregth of scent you un the very real risk of creating a creeper. Unfortunately, using launchers, it is impossible for you to know what the dog knows about the bird and its location. (You can't smell as well as the dog can and you are not where the dog is!!) About the best you can do is decide just how close is close enough to flush a bird and do it at that predetermined distance as consistently as you can. Launchers may be a necessary evil but they are a poor substitute for a live healthy bird with a strong fear of predators.
Mix this up with working the dog totally out of the scent cone of launchers but surprise the dog when it gets close to the launcher by launching the bird. When the bird launches, then you immediatly physically stop the dog and make it stand and watch the bird fly off. You'll be surprised how this may tighten up the intensity of the dog's points. You're also training the dog to stop on any wild flush, which in many places I hunt will save the dog's life. This behavior is similar to steady to wing but, not identical in the dog's mind - different context. It should help training steady to wing as well. Launchers work really well for this exercise. The only downside I know of is the noise may frighten some dogs - need to be careful about that.
Jere
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311Hemi
Mounds View, MN
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| 05/31/2007 2:24 PM |
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Jere, thanks for the response!
Mix this up with working the dog totally out of the scent cone of
launchers but surprise the dog when it gets close to the launcher by
launching the bird.
Is this best done by moving towards the launcher from the upwind side? How close are we talking?
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