bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri
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| 12/20/2005 7:52 AM |
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Ok, I thought I would kick off the training forum with a question about a problem I had while duck hunting this fall. My 2 year old lab Brady is APR, AKC Junior and I thought about ready for Senior or Seasoned. We had a duck hunt this year where we were hunting a flooded corn field. There were several birds brought down that he could not see from his end of the blind and I had to send him on a blind retrieve. There was open water for about 30 yards and then corn stalks for as far as you could see. He took a great initial line but as soon as he hit the corn stalks he veered off left or right. I would whistle sit him and then give him a back and he would only take it for a few feet and then start veering off left or right. He was pushing floating corn stalks in front of him and I think that was keeping him from driving back. Bottom line is I had a real hard time driving him back to where the bird was and had to walk out and keep pushing him back.
Long story, Short questions
Do any of you all integrate obstacles in your training the blind retrieve? If so what kind and what kind of training scenario and set up do you use. Logs, thickets, Corn fields?
I did not give Brady much experience in obstacles and looking at the above scenario from the dogs point of view I am sure it would be tough for a lot of dogs. Just curious if and how others are training for these situations.
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 12/20/2005 8:48 AM |
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There is a tendency to use training sites where a pup can go to the edge of terrain breaks or later we might ask him to go into it. However, the concept of driving through breaks in terrain sometimes gets put aside. Then when the dog goes hunting they want to hunt cover and forget about marking the fall. Driving gets relegated to the "back burner". Once a dog learns that there will be birds beyond and through cover they will have more trust in where the bird is at and drive. Here are two set-ups I used early on in Taffey's training. The first is a set-up of single marks through cover breaks. We do set-ups like this as often as possible. Later in the spring, we ran a set of long cold blinds through the same strip of sorghum from the opposite direction.
After hunting season it is more difficult to get a dog to leave cover. So the drill was set-up to reinforce the idea of holding a line and driving which is more difficult on a cold blind than a mark.
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri
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| 12/20/2005 11:32 AM |
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Kwick, I knew I could count on you for excellent advice and pictures to boot. You are right on the money with your observations about training sites. Usually when I put Brady in cover during training we were working Upland. I rarely got the chance to do Blind work in realistic hunting situations. I dont have access to close training facilities and did most of his blind work in the school yard. ( I know, I know) This particular situation I put Brady in during Duck Season was even more difficult since he was having to swim through the obstacles. I am going to have to go back and do some more work in cover and clean these items up before I am ready for any advanced Blind work. Thanks for you input. It is always appreciated.
Joe |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 12/20/2005 11:36 AM |
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Each type of obstacle needs to be taught. Standing corn is difficult as is any tall cover terrain, but if you can find narrow stips that's where to start. The hardest part is to teach a dog to fight factors.
I start early with a "camo" jump. As soon as a pup is retrieving well in the field, he'll soon see one. This will be taken from the front yard to the field where it will finally be almost 100 yards away. The no-no drills teach a dog to deal with obstacles and introduce the concept of attrition. I use my asparagus patch, long logs in training areas and eventually will use a small pond. Once the dog is de-flared they will not be thrown off easily by any obstacles.
A fun one to try, is to run your dog from behind a small mound. Treat it the same way start up close and move back. When the dog gets the idea they will go up and over. You just run behind them so as to continue handling from the top of the mound. Run blinds that cut corners of cover, and teach a dog to be comfortable going by a point as well as over it.
Easier said than done, but a dog can't do any of this unless you show them how.  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 12/20/2005 1:45 PM |
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Okay Kwick, I've got to ask. What's the reason for it being camo? Not as stressfull, or do you just like to simulate nature?
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 12/20/2005 4:06 PM |
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It was nothing that cerebral. I needed something about the size of the extra camo off my boat. It was available. Besides, think about how bad it would look if my hunting dog were jumping over some flowery bedsheet. You know when you say "camo" and growl like "tool man" it's just..............more..............manly.  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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rion
Spokane, WA
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| 12/20/2005 9:10 PM |
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| I really like your training aids Kwick, always a good use of PVC, cheap and easy to work with. You're usage inspired the boat re-model that I will have to post pictures of. |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 12/21/2005 7:08 AM |
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 Just wondering if I was doing something wrong with my 2x4 sitting on car ramps.
I do like the idea of the PVC though.
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 12/21/2005 8:02 AM |
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Not trying to be critical (I guess it coudn't be taken any other way  ), a young dog hitting a 2X4 could prove to be at the very least uncomfortable. The PVC is round and flexible plus the stand tips over easily. Also, a younger dog will have a tendency to flare at first. I'd be leary of a metal car jack hooking a leg. Maybe I'm too picky or it is my science background that trained me to avoid accidents.
I think it was my high school chemistry teacher who stressed that accidents happen because a problem was not anticipated in the first place. Therefore, by being aware of what might happen and reacting properly.............you avoid most accidents. For example, I have never, ever had a road accident while driving my car.....in 47 years. My rule on the road is "Everyone else is a total idiot." and I drive accordingly plus the fact that I don't drink and have been amazingly lucky. 
Well, maybe I did bump the fender of my son's car once when he parked in our driveway and I didn't anticpate the "idiot" who parked it right where I always back out. But that is more of a genetic issue.
Aren't you glad you asked?  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 12/21/2005 9:59 AM |
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Ah, but Kwick you should know me better than that. I don't get around to things as early as you, so she was not young by any means. Oh, and the car ramps were plastic. I'm sure that it's still another example of my ignorance and bad preparation hopefully being a learning experience for someone else.
Don't forget the return. Evan once said at his seminar that a dog will show it's true self on the return, so watch for the cheating.
I really like this Quick Reply thing!
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri
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| 12/21/2005 11:14 AM |
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Jay, I think the real answer is that Kwick has stock in the PVC industry and is making a killing off all the PVC products he is endorsing!  He probably gets a kickback on the glue and cleaner as well!
I am going to be building one of Kwicks obstacle jumps very soon. I dont know why I did not think of that already! I did zero obstacle training and it shows. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 12/21/2005 11:54 AM |
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"Evan once said at his seminar that a dog will show it's true self on the return, so watch for the cheating."
I've got to repeat the point of how valuable this drill is. In that you can quietly talk to your dog up close using quiet "goods" and "no's" while moving up (if necesary) to use distance to control the tempo of a session. It's fun for the dog, too.
The opportunity to quietly show your dog that you can teach, if he will listen, will benefit you greatly as you move along. The best part is the standard in this drill is clear-cut.....your either go over or you've made a mistake. Dogs like the KISS method and thrive on it. Each time you have success together it builds and promotes efficiency in your training. It is so much easier to train a dog that has "learned how to learn". |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 12/21/2005 12:29 PM |
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Actually, my company is one of the largest glue/cleaner manufacturers in the US. Ironic isn't it?
Well said Kwick. I do need to do that on a more regular basis.
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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