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mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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03/11/2007 9:00 PM	Alert
Hey guys, I'm not sure where Stella stands on this now, since we haven't been in water since fall. However, at that point, I had to stand right on the water edge to make certain that she'd come all the way to me before she dropped the bird to shake. She has been force fetched, will pick it back up when she's done shaking and deliver right to hand. She has no problems holding or fetching on land. i want to have a clear idea of what I'm going to do when I get her back in the water this week. She has great style on land, but is always a little more cautious when entering water. Certainly not enough to keep her from getting the bird - or slowing her down very much -- but the last thing I want to do is hurt her "water style" at all. I haven't done tons of water work with her. My plan is to start close enough that I know she'll do the right thing and bring it to me. But I need to start backing up pretty quickly here. What do I do if she does drop it to shake? Just tell her fetch as soon as she drops it, try to make her cut her shake short - and praise her upon return (keeping it all happy), or is it appropriate to bring a negative tone into play with such an action (dropping the bird). Stella is 1 year old and has very high desire to retrieve. I know nothing about dogs yet - but the veteran AKC trialers I train with told me, "not that dog - that dogs hot, you won't kill that dog". Still reluctant to bring negative tones around the water though. any thoughts? Thanks, Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/11/2007 10:53 PM	Alert
Did you collar fetch Stella? If she drops the bird, there is a correction. Have you taught her the "shake" command? The dog should learn 1) it can't drop the bird or there will be a correction and 2) shaking is supposed to be done after delivery. I'd stay very close to the water and work on teaching shake first. Make it part of the standard. Right now...she is not obeying "here", is not fully force fetched and is not shaking at the right time. To teach shake use a hand signal (kind of like what you do when waving to a small child). Start by doing it when she shakes and praise her as if it pleases you a lot. Once she knows the cue for shaking, she will delay the urge to shake because she wants to please you. The fact is right now the urge to shake is more powerful than her compulsion to bring you the bird. Convince her she is wrong, and teach her the proper order.....exit smartly, deliver to hand and shake on command.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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03/12/2007 7:05 AM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 03/11/2007 10:53 PM Right now...she is not obeying "here", is not fully force fetched and is not shaking at the right time. Kwick beat me to the answer again. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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03/13/2007 6:16 PM	Alert
no, I did not collar fetch her - I only used the ear pinch. I haven't used the collar because I've never had a problem on land, and haven't had un-frozen water since she got collar-conditioned. She may very well come right to me now that she has been doing forced retrieves all winter. But, I want to be prepared for the worst. I have never heard of teaching "shake" - that sounds like a great way to avoid too much correction near the water. I guess I should thoroughly teach her "shake" without any dummies involved or anything - although I'm not sure I can get her to go into this cold water w/out a dummy. hmmmmm. well, I think I have enough info now to work this out. Thanks a lot guys!

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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03/14/2007 7:35 PM	Alert
Stella got wet today I grabbed the first few as she broke shorlline. her enthusiasm in water has definitely increased since the fall! I tried to make the connection with shake and the hand signal, but certainly wan't in control of her shaking - she did it as soon as i took the bird. Finally, I was back far enough (only a few feet) to make her drop it and shake. But then I figured that it really didn't matter if I she knew when to shake or not, she still shouldn't drop the bird. If she shook with the bird in her mouth, I'd have a different monster to deal with... So why not correct her for dropping the bird - then when she does it right, reinforce the shake signal with her shaking. So the first time she dropped it, I commanded "hold", picked it back up, put it in her mouth, commanded "hold" again, and made her heel and hold down the shoreline. Occassionally, she will drop the bird early during land retrieves, but this treatment cures that for the rest of the session. When she did it a second time, i gave her some juice. She didn't like it and hasn't dropped it since. I moved faster on this than I had planned, but I"ve really found that an iron-fisted approach on OB and FF is the best for everyone involved. But honestly, I don't think I like it. It is the first time that I've made her do something that I don't firmly believe is the best thing for all parties involved. If she got a correction in the past, there was a good reason why. I can't figure out why it matters if she drops the bird to shake on her way out, as long as she picks it right back up and brings it to me. I have an easier time understanding why dogs aren't allowed to cheat obstacles on water work. Keeping on a straight line helps you konw where pup is and where pup is going... it could result in more birds brought to the bag. But why does it matter if she sets it down to satisfy an instinctual itch? I guess I feel like like its too much control on my end... or rather, a lack of fairness and respect to the dog. I know it looks nice and earns lots of points - but really, is there some other reason why, besides getting the bird dirty - I should not let her shake if she returns it to hand immediately following? I know that all commands need to b enforced, at all times. But couldn't setting the bird down to shake , then picking it back up, all be considered part of the process of "coming back to you" - she had full intention of doing it the whole time. But I understand the whole reasoning behind absolute control - I just question if it is as necessary after I"ve already been established as alpha-male.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/14/2007 9:17 PM	Alert
Wait 'til she drops a lively cripple to shake. At first, any time she shakes give her the cue. When it gets right down to it.......there's only one way to do it........the right way. There is nothing wrong with insisting.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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03/15/2007 5:38 AM	Alert
I guess it all depends on what you want to do with the dog Matt. If a hunting dog, it wouldn't bother me a bit. You shot a duck, she made a nice retrieve in the water and brought you the duck. My bet is if she drops a cripple she'll be all over that duck if it tries to escape. She'll also figure out which ones are still alive and she better hang on to a little longer.. These dogs are pretty darn smart and can figure out a whole lot on there own. Which IMHO is usually a better way than with handler intervention. I know a whole lot a people think differently, just how I'd handle it.

¶r²

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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03/15/2007 3:04 PM	Alert
I think that once again, I just moved a little too fast. I probably could have accomplished the entire objective with absolutely no negativity - but simply being more excited when she gave it to me without dropping the bird. Granted, this might not have made her ready for her first test, and it may not lead to 100% reliability .... but I guess it just kind of freaked me out that I was actually commanding the dog to "shake". There seems to be something profoundly unnatural about that. Maybe I'm just getting soft on the pup Chances are I'll come back to the fact that she's a dog - a dog that needs to honor all commands when they are given. Either way, that one session certainly made great progress, so I'll take what I've got and play the rest by ear.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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03/15/2007 3:16 PM	Alert
Matt, As you probably already know, most training can be accomplished with little or no "commanding". Just be patient and consistant and let her know what you expect. She'll get it before too long. Try thinking of ways to intice her to bring the duck to you first. High praise when she does what you want. Make it a good thing. I'm sure you'll figure it out. Rob

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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03/15/2007 4:05 PM	Alert
That's kind of what I"m thinking. I think I've learned a lot in the past couple days.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/19/2007 8:09 AM	Alert
"There seems to be something profoundly unnatural about that." Remember it is not natural for a prey driven animal to catch its food and bring it to someone else. It is not natural for a dog to heel in one specific area. There are a lot of things we ask our dogs to do which are not natural. Most of what we teach them happens because they want to please us. Actually teaching shake can be a fun thing for the dog.....like most everything else we teach. Most dogs shake naturally, sometimes at the wrong time. So by making a game out of it, a different sequence can be developed. It really depends on who is in control of the standards (the dog or you). The other thing is that standards aren't the same for everyone......but labeling the shake command issue as being "profoundly unnatural" seems a bit of a stretch. To repeat, teaching shake has always seemed fun for my dogs. While on the other hand if a FF dog drops a bird it has not been FF. A truly FF dog that has not dealt with the shake issue will shake and not drop the bird. It is all about standards......but they don't have to be universal. In my spare time, Daisy is learning to limp when I say "bang", crawl when I say "bang" the second time and flop over and play dead on the third "bang". One might consider that "profoundly unnatural", but in reality is this game all that bad? There is nothing wrong in playing games with dogs.......that's what we do everyday. Training is about teaching, defining expectations and overcoming challenges. Keeping it fun should be the focus.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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03/19/2007 11:22 AM	Alert
I think that you are getting too much into this "shake" thing. That is just something fun to work on, that may in turn help to make the process a little more rewarding. I'm with Kwick on the cripple duck thing. I would almost say that this is more important than taking a straight line for a meat only hunter. Anyways, my opinion is that you have two issues, hold and come/here. Both issues should not result in any negativity to water, so I personally wouldn't be concerned about that. When she gets out of the water she is thinking that she needs to shake, rather than thinking she needs to come based off of what I am hearing. She needs to understand that this is not the sequence. Tell her to come as soon as she gets out of the water, be as demanding as you need to be, but you may not need to give any correction. Sometimes all it takes is for a couple come commands and a couple quick steps back to get the idea. As soon as she gets there, tell her to heel and sit the same way. If she dropped the bird already, just give her a "no, fetch" followed by the come, heel, sit commands. As soon as you give her the drop command you can either give the shake command, or try to remind her to sit, step away, and then give the shake command. If she wants to do it, she'll do it as soon as you give any other command than sit. I'd keep doing this, getting her to think that coming to you and sitting is the proper sequence. Shaking shouldn't be done until after the bird is delivered. Of course, you are not supposed to trust anything that you read on the internet. Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness. GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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03/20/2007 10:55 AM	Alert
Jay, What you just said is basically how I plan on working it. Unfortunately, as soon as I started water work this spring, winter came back and froze everything back up. I"m hoping ice will be melted tomorrow, and I can get her in the pond again. My "discomfort" with the last training session was largely a result of of stress and frustration on my part. I stopped at the pond on my home from "the upland training session from hell" that made me decide against running in Ohio. I wanted to my mind by making certain that we were good to go with water for the AKC HT. Instead of the typical me/stella working together feeling, it was more of a "she's gonna do it cuz she can, and I'm gonna make her cuz I can" attitude. I didn't give her enough time to know how wonderful of a dog she would be if she brought it to me without shaking first. she dropped the bird and got the juice... and I think it was too high because the god-aweful cry that came outta her mouth **** near broke my heart. I have used the collar on her before, but this was different, I was playing by a different set of rules, and we both knew it. I felt like I broke a trust (as crazy as that seems with a dog). Of all the lessons learned in this one session - the most important for me was to make sure that I am in the right state of mind, and if I'm not, take the collar off and go for a walk instead Thanks for the advice, its always appreciated. -Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Jere

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03/20/2007 1:00 PM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 03/19/2007 8:09 AM Remember it is not natural for a prey driven animal to catch its food and bring it to someone else. ... This is not universally true, especially with canides. It is not an innate behavior pattern retriever breeders have included in the list of "must haves" and that has amazed me for a long time. Perhaps, now that some are focusing more on what the pup does opposed to what the dog will be made to do, thinking might change. Interestingly enough, while it isn't a biggy for retriever breeders, the folks who breed dogs for guidedog service discovered some decades ago that the dogs which naturally retrieve to the "handler" as youngsters were MUCH more likely (I'd quote the statistics but the reference is not at hand. It well into higher double digets of percent)to go on through the training program and become servicable guide dogs than those that did not. Jere

KwickLabs
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03/20/2007 3:07 PM	Alert
I think that you are getting too much into this "shake" thing. I'm with Jay on this. It is not that big of a training deal. It should be treated as a little "blip" in the scheme of things. As far as loosing it in a moment of frustration, recognizing this and knowing it is not part of your usual approach to things should make it a non-issue with your dog. They are amazingly resilient to isolated mistakes. Don't think for a moment you have to somehow make up for it. Give her two free throws and continue the game. She'll forget about it long before you do. We've all.......well....at least I have been there before....once.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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03/20/2007 6:19 PM	Alert
Kwik, Clearly lots of the training we do with the dogs is not "natural". But... they are all done for a specific reason - to help the "partnership" achieve a goal. That goal may be getting a bird, having the freedom to enjoy a walk in town without fighting with the leash, or just being a socially acceptable good citizen. When pup does these things, I am able to spend more time with her, and have a better attitude, so it clearly benefits her. And most everything we train is some responsive bahavioral action - training them to carry out (or not carry out) a series of movements or tasks. For much of this training, we are using the dog's natural instincts to accomplish our goals. I guess it just seemed like a much different "game" to force a dog to ignore a survival instinct (replenishing the air layer between skin and fur), if there was no distinct benefit to our "common goal" (pup producing bird - making me happy - making pup happy). This is what I meant by "profoundly unnatural". However, I was not thinking about wounded birds... and I do believe that consistency (never drop the bird when fetching) is the way to go. I guess I just felt like I was playing God too much... striking down with my iron fist and ****ing those that shake before I command them to. haha. Again, the real problem was in HOW I required it from her, not WHAT I required from her. Clearly this can be accomplished in a possitive manner. If I were reading this post from the outside - I would be 100% on your side. And really, I think I am even here on the inside. My hesitation can only be explained by the man/dog energy I felt at that moment.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Jakebrake

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03/20/2007 9:22 PM	Alert
I dont think this has as much to do with FF as it does the hold command. The dog is not solid on the hold command and thats that. go back and re-enforce the hold command. I would then do some FF work and see where youre at. It sounds like you have been inconsistant in your training and letting the dog get away with not delivering to hand. I would never ever accept anything but 100% delivery to hand with a hunting dog. I have seen dropped birds fly off never to be seen again.

mattkeenan
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03/22/2007 9:06 PM	Alert
Well, this doesn't seem to be an issue anymore After that 1 time when she dropped to shake, and got a correction, she hasn't even thought about it. I had her out at about 50 yards from the water's edge today - she ran straight back and sat at heel - I even delayed it a bit, and even held the bumper in my hand for a while before I told her to drop. When I finally did, she had a ferocious shake! Certainly no repetion require to enforce this one. Probably because she already knew the rules, just didn't know that they applied when soaking wet. It's amazing how it only takes 1 correction to fill that gap... these dogs are quick!

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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03/25/2007 6:01 AM	Alert
Posted By Jere on 03/20/2007 1:00 PM Posted By KwickLabs on 03/19/2007 8:09 AM Remember it is not natural for a prey driven animal to catch its food and bring it to someone else. ... This is not universally true, especially with canides. Jere Correct -- particularly with Pack Canides. If a subordinate Wolf makes a kill, it brings the prey back to the pack and one of the Alpha dogs will decide who (Alpha or pups) will get to eat first. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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03/27/2007 4:42 PM	Alert
I wonder if those Alpha dogs made sure the pup didn't shake before delivery? haha, just kidding guys, its all in good fun. I don't let her shake first either. But that does represent what I meant about natural vs. unnatural. Pack animals learn a certain code... they are taught to act a certain way in different "social" situations, they learn that pleasing the alpha dogs will reap rewards, and... they learn to hunt cooperatively, as a pack. I believe that the vast majority of the work we do is tapping into these instincts. The exact actions we require, how we command them, and how we enforce them are clearly different than those of our (alpha) canine counterparts.. but they are all working off the same instincts, with the same premises, and the same ultimate goals. All of this work has felt very natural and instinctual to me. More than that, it carried with it a very open, primitive, and positive energy between me and pup, even when I was "strongly" correcting her - I hope you guys have all felt this. All I meant to say is that the time I corrected her for shaking is the very first time that I felt a break in this energy. It can't be explained by logic or methodology. I will still require control and no-excuses delivery to hand, but I am now more careful how I teach and enforce these things. I also became very cautious as to how much control I want to ultimately instill - now that I know how easy it is to do. As humans, we have become so seperated from Leopold's Land Ethic.. and lost so much natural perspective, and access to so much instinct - that we need to NOT take these things away from pup, if we are to be an ultimate hunting pack. This isn't the game I signed up for.... its much deeper and much more rewarding I'm sure I sound like a nut to lots of you, but thats ok.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

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