2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
Grand Master
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| 03/08/2007 6:47 PM |
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Did not want to hi jack Kwicks thread any further off course- but the topic of JH came up and then I just saw an ad on tv for the surrogator'. Has anyone ever tried one of these to get a population started? Seems it would be neat to do the 'daily walk' as prescribed by 'the wise one' in the neighborhood of one of these!
http://www.quailrestoration.com/surrogator.html
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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
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| 03/08/2007 7:15 PM |
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I was already seeing visions of quail running all over the yard....until I saw the price tag!!! It's actually a very cool thing. I wonder how well it works.
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CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick"
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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
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| 03/08/2007 7:18 PM |
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Jere,
Thanks for the link (in the other thread). If you have additional pictures you could share, I would really appreciate it. I'm thinking of building one this summer.
Thanks,
Rob |
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Home of:
CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick"
PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket"
CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"
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mattkeenan
Salem, OR
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| 03/08/2007 7:23 PM |
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does'nt seem like it would be very difficult to build. perhaps an old truck cap that someone is giving away is a good start. Certainly would be better than spending $2,000. Great idea though!
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Matthew Keenan
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 03/09/2007 7:25 AM |
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I have a friend that has used one for the past couple of years. I'll see if what he thinks.
If you are getting a JH (Johnny House), then spend the extra money and get the predator funnel listed on that link. Go to the "shop online" button to see it. We use our JH almost on a daily basis, so we basically have to leave the funnel open all of the time. When we had the standard wire funnel it would never fail that we'd get a possum through (they can do it, believe me!), and they would eat half of those birds. If you spend $3-$3.50 a bird, it doesn't take long to pay for a better funnel. Since we put that predator funnel on, we haven't had a single issue with critters.
You guys really need to get in with a local Quail Unlimited Chapter. You may be able to find one that has a training grounds established with a JH and wild coveys. Pheasant Forever would be another one, but I don't know of very many pheasants in KC. 
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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Jere
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| 03/09/2007 12:24 PM |
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Rob, I'll see what seems the best way to get the pictures to yall. Did you take the other links from the initial page - there may be enough pictures there to cover essentially everything I have?
That Predator Proof Funnel looks like the cat's meow! Bet it could be built for about $9 saving $130! Wouldn't keep the bears out though! A year or two ago Sandy and I came home, let the dogs out of the truck and nearly immediately they went over towards the quail pen (no quail home, but there was some food stored there) started a great ruckus and dashed off into the forest on the heels of a young blackie. I went to investigate and found the bear had gone into the pen via the one-way funnel which was mounted so it could be tipped and held up by a latch. The bear had tried to get in, the funnel had tipped up and the bear went on in. There it was trapped. That wall of the pen was a flimsey wood frame covered by 1" chicken wire and attached to the building by a few screws. When the dogs arrived the bear HAD to get out. It hit the end wall of the pen running and knocked it out of the building as it went through. |
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 03/09/2007 12:28 PM |
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Glad the only bears we get are the few that swim over every year and pass through...
Rob G, Kwick has a DVD set I loaned him about setting up a quail "preserve"/johnny house set-up for dog training. I suggested he send it on to you (in the "three's a crowd") thread-maybe you could send him your address... |
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/09/2007 12:31 PM |
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I could do that.  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/09/2007 12:46 PM |
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| How's your quail project going Hooli? Hows that pup of yours doing and when do you get him back? |
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¶r² |
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 03/09/2007 1:07 PM |
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We mowed and cleared tangled brush from some of the meadows, and disc-ed one big area. Left "islands" of trees, salal, berry thickets and rose-hips for cover for the birds. Plan to plant "bird food" in the cleared area. Haven't been able to find a source for California quail-there are a few on the island. I could probably get bobwhites, but they are ONLY pen raised and planted up here, so not sure how they'd do. I can get good, flight-pen raised chukkars, so I think I might try a johnny house for them. So, I guess the short answer is-still in progress! 
I get to pick Churchill up for two weeks of "spring break" on the 24th! He is in Eastern Washington now, and by all reports doing well-haven't been able to visit since he's been out there  . He will go back into training Easter weekend, and will spend some time on some more advanced stuff-and will run him for his CP at the Montana test.
That is, if I can stand to give him back for another 6 weeks away from home! At least for this next part I can go visit as much as I can get there-which is good, because he'll know WAY more than me by then!
You feeling good, TB? |
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/09/2007 1:24 PM |
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Pretty darn good and thanks for asking. Though my long and extended upland days are behind me. Learning to pace myself....duck hunting is much esier on the body and a whole lot fun.
That sounds like a darn good plan. Thinking about trying some Chukar for recall myself.
It will good to see your buddy again before he goes off for graduate work. And nice getting to visit and see the progress. Best of luck in Montana, my bet is he'll put on a show! |
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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas
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| 03/09/2007 2:19 PM |
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| Why not just get a brooder, then load up at 5 weeks and throw into a field. It may not be exactly the same, but most brooders cost around $200 |
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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
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| 03/09/2007 2:31 PM |
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Jere,
I think I got enough basic info from the links you posted.
Hooligan,
Thanks for the offer to let me view the DVD's.
Kwick,
I sent you my address. Let me know if you didn't get it. Also let me know how you want to handle the shipping costs.
Thanks,
Rob |
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Home of:
CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick"
PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket"
CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"
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gsc
Wasilla, Alaska
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| 03/09/2007 3:53 PM |
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| I've raised game birds for a while now. I made my own brooders. Bought a plastic storage bin from Wal-Mart ($12.00), cut a hole in the lid for the light to sit over and slits for ventilation, bought a brooder type light fixture and bulb at Home Depot ($20.00) and a dimmer switch ($15.00) to regulate the temperature. The whole thing cost less than $50.00. I can brood 100 day old chicks, move to two at two weeks, into pens in the garage at 3 weeks and outside at 5 weeks weather permitting. I cycle around 500 birds to play with this way since there are no native quail, chukar or pheasant here. I have access to a section of land a friend owns. He runs buffalo and elk on it and we plant and hunt in the hay fields. |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
Grand Master
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| 03/09/2007 5:28 PM |
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| If you read the story/logic on that website for the "surragator" when released at 5 weeks they supposedly still have their "wild" instincts and thus a decent survival rate. GSC- have you been able to establish a population or are you mostly planting and hunting right up? |
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Scott
Kansas
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| 03/09/2007 7:23 PM |
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| I knew a guy that had one a couple of years ago, they never had a chick live more than one week. From the conversations we had at the time it sounded like they were having trouble maintaining temperature. |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
Grand Master
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| 03/09/2007 7:31 PM |
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| I guess if thats the case why not just buy 5 week old birds from the bird farms then? The pitch on that web site revolved around 1) impriniting to an area to keep them around once released 2) minimal human interaction to keep them wild 3) release at 5 weeks while they have wild "instincts". To be truthful it seemed to me that nothing would substitute for the chicks learning from their parent hens to survive. 1 and 2 would only be attained with a gadget like the surragator it seems- if it worked. |
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gsc
Wasilla, Alaska
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| 03/10/2007 12:44 AM |
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2Blackdogs-- very little survives, too many predators, fox, eagles, hawks, weasels, coyotes, etc. and too much winter. Grouse survive but not much else. The other problem is that planting does not work to establish a population. period. Several extensive studies have been done and the winter-over rate is less than 5 percent. Often not even that good. I think one of the best studies I have read was some where in the mid-west. You can increase your population for the current year at best. The difficult thing with the surragator is temperature control. With day old chicks, it is critical. It must be 95 +/- 5 degrees. It is difficult in a controlled environment with temperatures at about 65, almost impossible if you have the normal temperature variation we all have in the spring of 20 to 30 degrees. It can be done with this thing, but it is not a start it and forget it operation. I' m not convienced they are inprinted in that box. The professionals I know who raise birds keep as much distance between themselves and the birds as they can. Feed and water is done through a solid wall and the pens are far from the house. That is after they come out of the brooders at about 5 weeks. Most all gamebirds are not ready to hunt until they are 14 to 16 weeks old.
I don’t have access to wild birds here, they just don’t exist, so everything is planted or released. Usually not to far in advance, as the critters would feast and leave you nothing. I came at this dog/hunting thing a bit backwards this time. I raised Springers and American Water Spaniels in Washington state back in the 70’s and 80’s but have been out of the game for many years. I started raising game birds to “play” with and decided I was loosing way to many of them after we shot them. In Alaska there is virtually no regulation on any quail, pheasant or chukar. No permits, seasons or limits. I’m going to Indiana the first of April to pick up Cactus Jack puppy and I am excited. Should be a fun year.
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Jere
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| 03/10/2007 1:03 AM |
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Posted By Rob G on 03/09/2007 2:31 PM
Jere,
I think I got enough basic info from the links you posted.
...
OK Rob, I looked at that site again. Plenty of hints there. If you find you're wondering about anything, I do have a number of pictures of details of Bill Gibbons' 6' tall JHs as well as some barrel JH's. Just say so and I'll put them up on a site where they can be downloaded.
Jere |
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/13/2007 10:08 AM |
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Several extensive studies have been done and the winter-over rate is less than 5 percent.
gcs; I would love to see some pics of your homemade brooder. Though I don’t have the reference materials with me. The University of OK conducted a Quail Restoration Symposium, in the 70’s I believe. Dependant on the type of feed, cover, or part of the country you were in etc. I remember the survival rate much higher under the right conditions. Will dig up the publication when I can and post up some percentages.
A whole bunch depends on what you can provide released quail, cover, predators, if they are native to the area and most of all, what mother nature has in store.
We filled 8 feeders and released 200 quail yesterday. Another 150 will be released on Thursday, with the possibility of another 1,000 after the first of April. Due to the heavy snowfall in CO this year the game preserves did not use nearly the amount of birds raised by the breeders. Since the gentleman pictured below has been buying and releasing quail for a number of years, the breeder is keeping 500 for breeding and giving the rest to Ralph to release in early April.
He’s been releasing quail annually on this place in CO, where he set up a lease with 3 miles of river bottom close to 40 years ago. He has another larger place in OK where a number of professional pointer trainers have trained at one time or another (including Fred Dileo this years winner of the National Championship). Been restoring quail populations in both places for years. Even if only 5 percent survive, with 350 released and a little luck we will have dozen or so pairs sitting on eggs in a few months. The place was crawling with quail last fall and still finding plenty of them after the 6ft of snow that went on for months.
Spent a couple of days with him, picking his brain as much as possible. He’s 77 now and direct questions tend to drift towards current young dogs he’s working or past great dogs he’s trained or played a part of the development. He also spent quite a bit of time trying to talk me in to a pointer pup, either now or down the road. Saying he needs to pay off that debt he owes me from a pup I gave him 25 yrs ago. He has two champions at stud with quite a demand for stud service, so I could even pick and choose the bitch. I told him to not hold his breath as I’m enjoying Pi, only having one dog to take care of and I’ve turned into a duck hunter. He did talk me into going to an American field horseback trail this spring to ride a brace or two. I think he figures if he can get me to a trial, I’ll be hooked again.
I do have a number of pictures of details of Bill Gibbons' 6' tall JHs as well as some barrel JH's.
This should interest you Jere, since you tout the Bill West system, and now Bill Gibbons (West’s sidekick). I ask him about Bill West, because I knew Bill spent sometime in OK working dogs.
He said sure, he knew West, he trained across the street from his place at the Bradshaw Ranch in OK. Said Bill was Lee West’s cousin. I never correlated Bill with Lee. Met Lee a few times, he was a U.S. Federal Judge in OK (may still be) and has won “hundreds of championships” in Ralph’s words. He said folks say Bill had a way of getting in to the inter sycy of dogs, much deeper than just reading a dog. Getting in to their brains and figuring them out, really knowing how to bring out the best in them. Said, he drove up to Idaho years ago to run in the Idaho Shooting Dog Championship. Ran into Bill prior to checking in to a motel and ask Bill if he would scout for him in the trial. Not only did Bill scout for him. He invited him to stay in his camper, which he did, and the dog won the trial. He said Bill Gibbons is still running dogs and judging championship trials. You were hanging out in good company Jere, I know you learned a lot about pointing dogs from those two guys!
Before heading home yesterday afternoon, I parked on the road for a while. Watching two young white dogs getting after it, Ralph following along on horseback, with another 5 dogs at his stakeout chain yet to run and a huge smile on my face.
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