KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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Jere
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| 03/09/2007 2:51 PM |
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Posted By KwickLabs on 03/09/2007 1:26 PM Until you got to that last sentence by which you condemn me and a whole bunch of other folks for hunting wild birds in the west with our dogs
What is that all about? ...
It's all about the last sentence of the quoted paragraph I labelled 1.
I can only see bad things for placing such a dog in these situations.
I guess you speed read the post or forgot you said that.
No damage done, don't lose any sleep over it. Why aren't you out training, anyway?
Jere
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/09/2007 3:17 PM |
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The reason I'm not training is there are about 6 inches of snow on the ground, and it is raining. For several days before this mess, the snow had a thick crust of ice which equals bloody paws.
It has been a terrible winter for training. Does "Couch Potatoes R-Us" ring a bell?
Yesterday, we did take a 3/4 mile walk down the middle of the road, and "yard work" has been modified to "drive-way work".
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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Jere
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| 03/09/2007 3:46 PM |
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Posted By KwickLabs on 03/09/2007 3:17 PM
...Does "Couch Potatoes R-Us" ring a bell?
...
You betcha. I'm beginning to be able to tell when the weather is not good there.
It hasn't been over 30 degrees here since we got back from lower America. Only a few days of snow, though, THANKS!! Below zero about every night for the past ten days or so. Into the teens mostly during the day at best. Winds to 55 mph but not all the time by a long shot. Any breeze at these temps is NOT welcomed.
Blue skies - nice.
Still looking for recipes for lemonade. If I find one with ingredients you have, I'll send it on down!
Jere
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Jakebrake
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| 03/21/2007 10:28 AM |
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Kwick,
what a great post and very astute observations. the only place where we part ways is on the general assumption of balance and that of the timing and importance of early training/imprinting. From the time that you get the little critter home you should be getting that pup on birds at every opportunity. I can't stress this enough. If you dont live where you have access to wild birds you need to raise some bobwhite in a johnny house so that you can have flight conditioned birds for your pup. Since there is almost no formal traning that goes on in the first 6 months, this should be your number one mission. this early immersion will "set the scales" and give you the balance you seek. Once you have made your pup a bird machine, that drive will be set in stone for the rest of the dogs life. Make them a wild indian, because you can always take a little starch out of em, but its harder to put it back in. By the time they are 6 Mo's you will have a bold pup that is always "out in front" where he belongs, looking for birds. Then you can add the control you are after. In fact if you are not going to do any dog games I think you and your dog will be better served if you never own an e-collar. You can get a dog the very high level without the collar. the collar is a crutch and a shortcut device that causes far more problems than it solves in the hands of 80% of the amatuers out there. The drive to find and retrieve birds is more powerful than any e-collar. If you can harness that drive with the need to please and a strong bond of trust, boy then you have something that not many trainers have achieved or even know is possible. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/21/2007 2:04 PM |
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I think sometimes my retriever training posts tend to create an illusion as to what my pups do early on with upland birds. They may not get quantity, but the quality and timing sure seems to do the trick.
This picture of Daisy was snapped when she was four months old. Take into account she 1) was gun conditioned, 2) knows about birds, 3) is retrieving a scratch bird (which means it wasn't planted), 4) has had a very interesting imprinting with birds in general and 5) has a better understanding of what is in store for her than most pups do at that age............I don't think we are that far apart. 
For me, the frequncy of the opportunities is not nearly as important as the quality.  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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Jakebrake
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| 03/21/2007 3:41 PM |
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| When I say a lot of birds, I mean a LOT of birds. I like to have 200-300 wild bird contacts before 6 months. I also am a big advocate of a diverse reange of contacts. I like to have my pup on at least 4 species of birds. Here in Wa, I can get them on 2 types of grouse, valley quail, chukar, huns and pheasant. on top of it I supplement with the nearly wild quail I have been raising. the dog gets to chase birds every single day. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/21/2007 6:20 PM |
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Well, that is definitely different. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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Jere
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| 03/22/2007 1:42 PM |
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Posted By Trout Bum on 03/22/2007 6:04 AM Posted By Jakebrake on 03/21/2007 3:41 PM
When I say a lot of birds, I mean a LOT of birds. I like to have 200-300 wild bird contacts before 6 months. I also am a big advocate of a diverse reange of contacts. I like to have my pup on at least 4 species of birds. Here in Wa, I can get them on 2 types of grouse, valley quail, chukar, huns and pheasant. on top of it I supplement with the nearly wild quail I have been raising. the dog gets to chase birds every single day.
That's how you make an upland bird dog!!
Now, the question for pointing Lab. folks, is: How do you do this AND make a retriever of the same dog?
Jere |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/22/2007 2:52 PM |
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The topic suggests there are several choices.......not one path........different expecations.....and not a singular "best" result.
A person wanting a high powered retriever is going to get there WITHOUT 200-300 upland experiences before the pup is 6 months old because retrieving is the focus. There are some that will spit the difference and be perfectly satisfied with the results. Actually most are somewhere in between. The other extreme, creating a bird dog may be almost the total focus while retrieving is delayed and contol is never extremely demanding.
Your question, I think, was what can be done to accomplish "all of it"? You need to be a dedicated, talented trainer with a lot of time (more than twice as much), to have an exceptional dog, to have the unique desire to excell at both and to be blessed with a great geographical location. Not too much to ask for.....right?
That's why we have choices and make compromises.
Jakebrake or Jere, if we traded dogs even up, I am sure neither one of us would be very happy. However, my naive ego tells me you would be happier than me.  Just kidding. 
Jere, how about your solution to the question?
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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gsc
Wasilla, Alaska
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| 03/22/2007 2:57 PM |
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| Since I am just about to embark on this odyssey ( pick up the pup in two weeks), I have appreiciated all the ideas, discussion and even disagreements. Now I have to decide what I want vs what I can afford (both time and money) and go to work. Thanks a lot for this thread. |
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Jere
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| 03/22/2007 3:16 PM |
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Posted By KwickLabs on 03/22/2007 2:52 PM ...>
Jere, how about your solution to the question?
Jim, you may have noticed the brevity of my post. I'm typed out. Maybe another time.
But, I would personally not exclude a healthy dose of upland in parallel with the retriever formalism as I have mentioned in the past. This would still be true were I to want a Retriever HT/FT qualified product - which I would not.
Jere
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mattkeenan
Salem, OR
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| 03/22/2007 9:22 PM |
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| in my "compromise", I spent more time early on doing retriever work, although I am more intrested in upland hunting. Sure, lots of this had to do with availability of birds and grounds. But even if this were a non-issue, I would still spend more time with retrieving and control work (although I would prefer to have weekly, informal, exposure to birds). I have very limited time as a trainer. I feel that it is more important to do the control/retriever work early, to ingrain some structure into the dog. Later, and through various hunting trips, my idea is that the dog will learn to have more of a free spirit in the upland field (provided that in the control work, you don't kill the dog's spirit by making it an absolute robot). That being said, if there is one thing that I would have done differently - it would have been to find a way to get pup on birds every week. and I mean good birds, that she can't catch, and just let her have fun finding them and doing her thing. Although I'm certainly not qualified to give advice here... I'm a little too green for that. Just sharing my perspective I guess. |
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Jakebrake
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| 03/24/2007 9:56 PM |
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Well, let me ask both you, Jim and Jere, What exactly are you working on between 2 and 6 months of age? I do almost no formal training because the dog just isnt ready. How much "retriever" work are you really doing? at this age the dog is only seeing easy marks and othing longer than 100-125 yds. My main goal is just to make a dog that is keen to retrieve.
My goal is an upland shooting dog that works as a team mate. Master level work simply isnt needed in real hunting situations. My dogs need to be able to freelance without the fear of reprimand. Independence is a good thing, too much focus on control is a mistake if you want a dog that excells at finding birds.
It's clear we want 2 different things from our dogs. I'm a wild bird hunter and I require attributes in a dog that the dog game guys might not even care about.
The west is a big place with lots of birds and millions and millions of acres to hunt, I want to hunt as much of it as I can before Im too old to do it. |
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/25/2007 2:46 PM |
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There are not too many people than even know what an upland shooting dog is. Which is much different than an upland gun dog. And there are not many people that want a shooting dog once they know what it is......
What kind of riig are you driving JB? My bet is you've got some prettty darn good bird dogs... |
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¶r² |
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Jakebrake
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| 03/25/2007 5:39 PM |
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| TB, I have an F350 crew cab super duty, Lariat of course 8-) and a little german sedan for commuting. Seriously though I have 2 nice shorthairs and 2 labs. Both Labs are out of Blackforest lines. Next Lab will be a Grand river dog. |
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Jere
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| 03/25/2007 8:04 PM |
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| JB - Are you going to try and get Mike to select a pup that points?
I'm trying to get Tucker or Storm to answer your question. They both went through that part of life with me. They are both busy teaching the 18 mo grandson remote sit and plan on working on three handed casting when he gets that down. They are calling me as support as they haven't mastered blowing the whistle yet.
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 03/25/2007 9:20 PM |
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| I see that there will be a seminar at Grand River in September. What are everyone's thoughts about that? |
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/27/2007 7:35 AM |
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| I think it would be a great seminar. Anyone that has trained as many dogs as Mike has to have learned a thing or two along the way....plus the fact he always has a string of english pointers to go along with his string of labs. |
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¶r² |
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