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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/07/2007 10:19 AM	Alert
This is long. There are three general approaches to training a pointing Labrador. One approach is to integrate retriever training and upland hunting into a compartmentalized scheme. Each is developed simultaneously so as to maintain balance. This is based on the idea that a dog thrives on balance. The problems is with doing two things at once.......,it is usually more than twice as difficult. Most people do not want to deal with a longer time frame let alone using two contrary training philosophies. In most cases, haste, influenced by desires, relegates this approach to the last choice. There is another idea which first stresses doing a lot of upland experience with minimal control to maximize the dogs hunting skills. Retriever skill training is delayed. This is the usual choice of the owner that hunts primarily upland and is not interested in hunt tests....or later discovers waterfowl. There is a problem with the second choice....it is out of balance. If advanced retriever training is later perceived as a worthy goal the dog will may have difficulty with advanced control training (stressing word advanced). The problem is how could the trainer/handler have minimized the effects of this imbalance? The third idea is to get the dog “bird crazy” on early imprinting, and when formal OB starts, concentrate on advanced retriever skills. This is the choice of an owner into upland and waterfowl hunting with a very strong interest in hunt tests. The problem with the third choice is the dog will have had much fewer opportunities to learn search and hunt. This training is, also, out of balance with respect to upland hunting. What can be done to minimize the impact of the out of balance training routine? Issue - retriever training impact on upland hunting (in choice three) theoretical problem - control erodes search facts: 1) Too much of one thing in dog training creates an imbalance. 2) Dogs thrive on balanced training. 3) Hunting and searching for birds is an acquire skill developed through regular exposure to bird finding opportunities. Drive, style, range and success are determined by genetic limitations, handler interactions and opportunities. 4) Experience in the uplands is important and dogs benefit most with early, regular exposure. 5) Quality obedience training is entirely dependant upon the skills of the trainer. 6) Retriever training requires control as compared to upland hunting which provides free choice opportunities. 7) Doing two things simultaneously is usually more than twice as difficult. 8) Expectations are an individual prerogative Conclusions: 1) Genetics is taken care of in the selection of a pup. 2) Opportunities are a controllable variable dependent upon the handler. 3) Training is a controllable variable dependent upon the handler. 4) Range can be altered by dog/handler interactions. Less is better. Therefore, the question is how does the individual minimize the impact of retriever training on range? Retriever training facts: 1) Distance erodes control. 2) Trainer expectations and skills determine the level of control. 3) A dog’s attitude can be greatly impacted by the trainer. 4) If a dog only runs marks out to 100 yards, a boundary where hunting “starts” is established. A habit is developed which inhibits drive and momentum. The dog learns, “This is how far I go.” 5) If cold blinds are short, a barrier is established beyond which the dog will not do well. The dog learns, “I’m not sure what to do when I go this far away.” 6) Retriever training can unwittingly set mental limits on distance (i.e. marks and blinds). Conclusions: 1) By keeping a dog in tight and limiting distance in early age retriever training the dog has a built in barrier to distance. 2) A dog’s attitude and mental make-up are impacted at an early age by trainer/handler skills. First of all, the manner by which control is introduced and applied has a great impact on the mental makeup of a dog. Whether it is the heavy handed task master vs. a team player teaching mode handler will make a huge difference in the spirit of a dog. Therefore, how OB is dealt with will impact range. A dog that comes out of retriever training with his spirit intact will have better range in the uplands. Attitude is dealt with by making control a spirit enhancing experience.....fun. By making control have less of an impact, the dog is closer to being a free running searcher. The dog is more in balance. Secondly, since distance is a factor, it is important to somehow integrate into retriever training an expectation of balance as it relates to distance. To repeat what was stated earlier, hunting range is determined by genetics, handler interactions and opportunities. Using this as a guide, what kind of handler interactions could a retriever trainer integrate to enhance range in the uplands? To strive for balance, the retriever trainer should work at distances comparable to those expected in the uplands. By using similar distances in retriever training...the dog is more in balance. To summarize, if a pointing Lab is taught advanced retriever skills (and early), there will be an imbalance in retriever vs. upland experiences. To reduce this imbalance there are two things that can be done. First, make OB/control a clear-cut, fair process in which the focus is on maintaining an excellent attitude. Keep the spirit of the dog intact. Secondly, make distance a non-issue by working a retriever out to distances comparable to the desired upland hunting range (and early). When it comes time to do upland, two inhibitions will have been reduced. The dog will still have a spirit of its own and less of a built in range barrier. However, doing two things (advanced retrieving and upland) takes over twice as long, and neither may never be as advanced as if it were the only one.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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03/07/2007 8:20 PM	Alert
I understand the barriers, I was working 1 of my dogs today on the single t, He was doing great so I was thinking about the how far to stretch um thread so I sat him on the other side of the truck and put a cold blind 25 feet farther than the center pile, I sent him and he ran straight at it then he shut down right at the point of where the back pile use to be, So I sat him, and cast him back left and he did an left over, stoped him and a back right and did a right over, So I simplifyed went out to right in front of him and cast him back he broke through the barrier at that point and went right to the bumper. So I see were these barriers become very real to the dog.

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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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03/08/2007 9:45 AM	Alert
Here I go talking smack (again), but this one of the best posts on the challenges facing a PL trainer I’ve read. However it does seem to have a slant towards the justification of method number 3 and I’ll buy it. Will not be my choice for the next pup though. I plan on using method 1 with a mix of upland and retrieving, though I doubt I’ll ever go to the advanced levels. Personally, I think method 1 would give the dog a better opportunity at becoming a proficient upland and waterfowl dog earlier in life than method 3 would. And probably a better finished product when all is said and done. After reading part I of Julie’s new book, it appears to fall under method 1, I can’t wait to until section II comes out! There is another idea which first stresses doing a lot of upland experience with minimal control to maximize the dogs hunting skills. Retriever skill training is delayed. This is the usual choice of the owner that hunts primarily upland and is not interested in hunt tests....or later discovers waterfowl . This fits Pi’s training to a T. As long time avid upland hunter, Pi turned me into a duck hunter. See what happens when you get a PL? Not a result of her upland skills, by any means. It sure was a joy of watching her develop into a duck dog and a pretty darn good one at that….waterfowl hunting sure grows on you and now I’m hooked. . There is a problem with the second choice....it is out of balance. If advanced retriever training is later perceived as a worthy goal the dog will may have difficulty with advanced control training (stressing word advanced). The problem is how could the trainer/handler have minimized the effects of this imbalance? That ones easy, work on more retrieving drills early one so there is not such an imbalance!....making it very similar to method 1. There is a lot of gray area in each of the methods and as you said a whole lot depends on the trainer’s ability along with the ability to provide opportunities. I think the quality of the upland training is much more important than the time allotment. For example, I would rather have one quality outing a month than 4 stimulated bird encounters with planted birds on a weekly or daily basis. Wild birds would be the first choice. Liberated, semi-wild quail or chucker via call back pens or feeders would be the second choice. Liberated birds at a hunting preserve or game farms a third choice. Planted birds a distant last desperation choice (other than for an early bird encounter or two for a pup). Too much human intervention with planted birds. Human scent in unnatural settings leads to unstylish pointing, flagging and head movement. Some use carded pigeons with success, and it would help to eliminate some of the human interaction. Though I’ve never tried it and probably never will. . However, doing two things (advanced retrieving and upland) takes over twice as long, and neither may never be as advanced as if it were the only one. It’s certainly not a race for me and why I feel this thread is so important. Finding the right mix, applying the right amount of pressure, reading the dog (probably the most important of all) and still ending up with a dog that does it in style. One that shows enthusiasm, joy in what they are doing, performing with class and style, and still has some independence for the uplands! I would be interested in your thoughts about de-cheating and swim-by, if and how they relate to hunting. Are they beneficial for the hunter or only needed for trials and testing? Are there other advanced retriever drills that are not necessarily beneficial or have limited benefits for the hunter?

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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/08/2007 10:42 AM	Alert
I have struggled with this for several years now. The fact my first post was slanted toward choice three shows my bias and focus. There is no way to examine a personal bias without being aware of another viewpoint (or two) and the rationales. The problem, as I see it, is to make the path taken flexible enough to integrate other valuable skills (if possible) and minimize negative impacts. It might interest you.....no........I think you will chuckle at this. A few weeks ago, I decided my membership in the hunt club will not be renewed this spring. Also, my dogs and I will no longer be guiding on planted birds. Thanks to Marlana's DVD (which I need to mail back to her), there is a Kwick Johnny House planned for this summer. However, we will be "hot and heavy" into hunt tests and field trials (until next fall). Now as for de-cheating after swim-by. This is "good stuff" for waterfowling. Most retrieves are short and a dog that is a team player will do just fine. Cheating is probably a wise skill when it is cold. There is no sense being in the water all the way out and back. Cheating can also prove to be dangerous, and if one is concerned about the safety of a dog, being able to control the line can be life saving or at the very least avoid a lot of problems. Most retriever trainers consider swim-by and decheating basic waterfowl training. A lot of duck hunters and their dogs have never heard of swim-by let alone been decheated. I personally know of a dog that had his HRCH Finished title that had never done swim-by or been de-cheated. He hunted ducks for years. However, my friend went through a lot situations where the dog didn't or couldn't do certain things. So as you can see, there might be many that think "Why bother?" and others who would ask, "Why not?" I've done both. "Why not?" is much better. As for the "other" advanced retriever drills, I'll have to think more about this.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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03/08/2007 11:58 AM	Alert
Kwick, I don't know if this goes throughout the summer, but we have to release our JH birds in the spring. They get "the urge" to create their own space, and to strut their stuff, so they will peck at each other until they kill. If you do use them, the bobs will come back if you leave a hen in, but the hens will just stay out. This may be the case during the summer as well. We're having good luck releasing 6 week old chicks on a feeder and waterer throughout the summer. Many still die off, but the ones that make it respond much like a wild bird. Keep broadcast feeders around, or feeders with protection around them, and you'll have virtually wild birds to train on. My current issue is time, and a sense of doing something. My upland field is a half hour away, so I don't have any time to go there after work during our current time schedule. When I do, I find that it honestly seems a little boring. If I can find birds on a constant basis, then it's fine, but walking a couple of hours to find one covey, and not being able to shoot, seems a little time consuming, and feels like I didn't really accomplish anything. Retriever training seems like you are constantly "working", and you see progression. Upland isn't always that way. I guess this is why people ride horses. Anyways, I'm getting better at being laid back, and accepting the exercise (even though it DOESN'T show), but can't wait to move to an area with more wild birds. I do plan on doing much more upland with my next pup than I did with Allie. Everything that she does is all natural, because I haven't taught her anything in the upland. I want to help the next pup out a little more. Time and land/water is the enemy to a working stiff, no matter what plan you follow. It also makes it harder that we are training two systems, where all other dog owners only train one. Balance is tough! Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness. GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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03/08/2007 2:42 PM	Alert
Yes, I chuckled and smiled....though think you should give the guiding and preserve some additional thought. May be other options or preserves that would better suit your training plans. There are some preserves in CO that do not plant the birds. Instead they liberate the birds anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours prior to your hunt. Keeps the human scent to a minimum and allows the birds to move around and flush more naturally. Heck if I was retired and could handle the walking, I’d love to hook up with the right preserve. Johnny houses work great. The key is conditioning the birds for flight before putting young dogs on them. You can sure get some quality bird work in over an extended period! I had great success with one several years ago. I used it on almost a daily basis from early Summer to Fall for several seasons. Had two dozen quail, one dozen would be used one day and the other dozen the next day and never lost a single bird. I converted a chicken coop last year to a JH with access to a small pasture behind the house. The quail kept dying off, went through 3 dozen of them before I knew it. It seems there is a bacteria or virus that lives in the soil in CO along the front range. At least that's what two different quail breeders told me...Put in a lot of work and dollars, adding a hardware wire floor, and nylon netting for a small flight pen attached to the JH. Disinfected everything twice with a Clorox mix to no avail. At least, I was able to get some bird work in over a 3-4 week period, but disappointed I couldn't keep them alive. Sure a lot a bucks spent with the little bird work I got out of it. I may try some Chukar this year, I understand they will come to a call back pen as well and are a little hardier than quail. Pi cheats on a regular basis, rarely ever cheats going out, but coming back she often times takes the easier route. Safety is certainly an issue and high on my priority list, heck she's my best buddy! Hunted water with ice quite often this year, but avoided hunting the small DU pond on the farm that is loaded with ducks. Problem was 80 percent of it was frozen all year, deeper water a tougher getting back up on the ice. I think you’re right Jay, they want to pair up in the spring. Feeders are great on liberated birds if you are willing to loose a few. Pretty tough to tell them apart from the wild ones for sure. Talking a two hour walk and finding a covey of quail is a huge learning experience for your dog. My bet is she remembers where they were, what type of cover, how good a whole covey smells when in a natural setting. Should be some opportunities to work the singles after the covey flushes. That’s what really makes a bird dog, there are not birds around every corner and sometimes you have to push and work for them. Heck I think all dogs learn more in the uplands on their own than you can teach them….it’s just giving them the opportunities and following them early on more than you lead them. Balance is tough! It sure is, but it builds your character.

¶r²

Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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03/08/2007 3:40 PM	Alert
I know, but I often find it frustrating when I think of all of the other stuff that I need to be doing. I've realized this, and have come to realize that I really do need to do this, but often find that I can't because of the time. I agree that she learns a lot off of a wild covey, but you sure wish that it was more than one to give that extra enforcement. Hunting singles around my place is almost non-existant. We have very bad stands of saplings that a dog can barely fit into, but the quail love for protection. Those little turds always fly into one of these stands. I've tried to work them before, but they'll generally lose the dog. If the dog can find one, they'll point the bird in a location that I can't possibly get to. Now how can this be good? Well, I'm going to go balance a steak and beer. I'll let you know how it turns out. Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness. GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/08/2007 3:53 PM	Alert
My thoughts on guiding have been altered due to several factors. To start with, I have not purchased a single bird with my membership for two years. The dogs were getting a lot and free. Secondly, the club has changed ownership and the guide pay per hour went up 33%.....but this increase is being kept by the owners. Third, since the club changed hands I have guided once in the last two and a half months. Fourth, this is going to be my last year of organizing the retrievers for the club "Euro" shoots. Fifth, the grouse cycle in Wisconsin is on the way up, and I need to prioritize my time. Sixth, I want to take two trips west this fall. Therefore, with less guiding I can get in more wild bird exposures. Last, but by far not the least.......the "straw that broke the chain" happened on a January guiding job. Taffey was doing just great. She had pointed another chukar on the way back from a retrieve with the first shot chukar in her mouth. She then proceeded to complete a very difficult blind retrieve on the second chukar. The cover was too high for her to see where it sailed to after only dropping a leg. A few minutes later, she slammed into another point. I knew exactly where every client was (especially the one that had never upland hunted before). Taffey was pointing west, a strong wind was blowing west and the plan (explained out loud) was for me to be near Taffey flushing the bird. It should have flown west. I walked "behind" the gunner in the middle toward Taffey, and just as I proceeded by him the chukar flushed wild. The client shouldered his gun and swung with the bird.......as it flew at an angle EAST! His gun fired directly at me from about 6 yards away, and the shot went a foot or two right over my head. The first six reasons are insignificant!

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!

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03/08/2007 5:06 PM	Alert
Jim- # 7 was / is a BIGGIE ! Jay- Once this breeding happens-I am gonna need to look into those "johhny" houses. My biggest fear is the remote location and predators.

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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03/08/2007 5:13 PM	Alert
Sorry guys, I'm playing catch up and there's a lot of reading so far (and I probably missed it), but what is a JH bird? Also, please tell more about "johnny houses". Thanks, Rob

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Jere

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03/08/2007 5:44 PM	Alert
Briefly a Johnny house is a bird pen with a one way wire cone shaped tunnel which allows birds to return to the safety of the pen after being released to roam. Some examples are here: http://www.uplandbirddog.com/dogcamp/recall.html I think I have a bunch of picures showing details on my laptop if you want some. Jere

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03/08/2007 8:32 PM	Alert
I wrote the following nearly four years ago (Material in []s added for reference): Pointinglabs.com - 05/18/2003 - Topic: Challenge for V-man ... It has been tradition in retriever circles that the upland work be delayed until all the control stuff is completed. BUT some of the best retriever trainers in this country [e.g. Mike Lardy] do the freer marked retrieve stuff in parallel with the rigid blind retrieve stuff to advantage. I have suggested before [ 05/02/2003 - Steadying PLs vs Pointing breeds] that doing upland in parallel with those two also could prove both beneficial and efficacious. I have also asserted that delay would in all liklihood result in degradation of the upland work. Careful balancing is certainly required, but it is also in less general programs on a smaller scale. Jere The passage of the intervening years has not done anything to change my mind. The issue is not "range" per se. The major issue is developing the dog so it can accept total control in formal (blind) retrieve work and still function cooperatively and boldly (without control), seemingly independently of yet not really detached from, actually attached to, in a sense,the handler, in the uplands. I know "independently of but not really detached from" sounds oxymoronic. The problem is that bird dog folks like to use the word 'independent' (to distinguish from 'bootlicker') where I think 'bold and cooperative' would more accurately reflect the behavior desired. Here, I believe 'independent of' does not mean 'without regard for,' rather it means 'not dependant on.' Actually, I think there can be an element of this 'attitude,' if you like, in a dog which has figured out the blind retrieve game. Have none of you sensed what I'm talking about? Secondary but important issues arise from the lack of actual upland experience for the dog confined to a rigid retriever training program alone and then going to upland work. Jere PS, I'd have second thoughts too, Jim, if someone nearly shot me from close range. Getting hit could ruin your whole day! Ahhhh yes, the coming ruffed grouse 'high' in Wisconsin! My long time friend from Wisco with the DDs assures me moving 75 birds a day should be routine. But he didn't deny picking up all the ticks one's body could support wouldn't be routine! I'm debating going there. Might well not get another chance in this lifetime.

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03/09/2007 2:03 AM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 03/08/2007 10:42 AM ... Cheating can also prove to be dangerous, and if one is concerned about the safety of a dog, being able to control the line can be life saving or at the very least avoid a lot of problems. ... Jim, how about some examples where cheating would be dangerous. In my travels hunting around the country I feel I see and encounter many more situations where the thoroughly de-cheated dog would be in danger than the other way around. Rapidly moving water with or without ice, thick nasty prickery desert scrub that does not allow a straight line retrieves, convoluted rims over steep (read vertical sloped) deep canyons, vertical sided, narrow and deep erosion gullies or streams in the desert and bolder fields on steep mountainsides immediately come to mind. I'm thinking mostly of marked retrieves in situations where I believe the dog SHOULD choose the path to the fall and that path may well be a very cheaty path. Do you see any conflict arising for the de-cheated dog? Jere

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/09/2007 8:44 AM	Alert
Do you see any conflict arising for the de-cheated dog? Yes, there can be. It should be noted that decheating water is more specific to this discussion and it only takes a few weeks to do this. For the hunting dog it does not have to be a “this is the way it has to be forever” message. Let’s clarify why a dog should be de-cheated. It is nothing more than a tool a handler can use when a dog needs direction......if necessary. There will be times when even an experienced hunting dog will not make the right choice. This can be dangerous as you described. A hunting dog understands the concept of making choices on the run. Decheating a dog means the handler has an “ace in the hole” to modify the choice. Some day Randy will be hunting along side a body of water with a bunch of barb wire on the shore line, or serious “rip rap” or a steep bank. He will be in a situation where he knows better, and he might just want to have the decheating tool on board to protect Pi. Yes, decheating can get a dog to take a straight line and it can be carried to the extreme, but initially it is more about being responsive to the handler’s direction.......when called upon. With repetition the field trial retriever will almost habitually go straight. In fact, some are naturals at going straight. However, I seriously doubt there will be any active field trial retrievers dealing with “thick nasty prickly desert scrub that does not allow a straight line retrieves, convoluted rims over steep (read vertical sloped) deep canyons, vertical sided, narrow and deep erosion gullies or streams in the desert and bolder fields on steep mountainsides”. I can only see bad things for placing such a dog in these situations. Hardcore field trial/hunt test trainers want straight lines. The skill has to be maintained because it can erode quickly if allowed. Not going straight means you loose. However, one should temper this with the fact that field trial dogs would never be in situations like you described. Not all decheated dogs are equal. Decheating is a tool, and the expectations of handlers’ vary greatly. Dogs learn through experiences that are not fatal and training that may prevent a bad choice. edit: There is another reason for going straight which is used quite often....the straight dog disturbs less cover. I'm not too sure I agree with this other than the fact a dog should not hunt on the way to a retrieve. This is more applicable to flushing retrievers. They are suppose to be in range when flushing a bird, and unlike the pointing dog could end up out of range.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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03/09/2007 10:59 AM	Alert
Kwick, maybe you could pass along the DVD's to Rob G-seems like they might be of use to him...

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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03/09/2007 11:03 AM	Alert
Some day Randy will be hunting along side a body of water with a bunch of barb wire on the shore line, or serious “rip rap” or a steep bank. He will be in a situation where he knows better, and he might just want to have the decheating tool on board to protect Pi. Yes, decheating can get a dog to take a straight line and it can be carried to the extreme, but initially it is more about being responsive to the handler’s direction.......when called upon. Actually had a couple of those this year. Fortunately Pi makes up for my lack in retriever training and abilities and picked up on some of those hand signals we worked on this summer. First one on the CO River with a steep bank, current with ice along part of the edges of the river. I just gave her an over command along with the hand signal and she swam to the right, with the current away from the ice for an easy return to land. She’s pretty smart, didn’t have to show her the way on any of the other ducks. The second was on the Platte river. There was a large deadfall in the mix though, she was trying to climb up on it, duck in her mouth and current pushing her and making it difficult. Gave her a back then over to get around the deadfall, then kept giving her an over to get her down the river 30 yards or so where the bank wasn’t 20 ft high. Ironically she kept having difficulty on “back” while working on single T this summer. To the point where we had to just leave it for a while. The next thing I knew hunting season was upon us and training would have to wait. Looks like she picked up a whole bunch more than I thought. Will give it a go again when things settle down and I’ve caught a few fish. #7 would have done it for me as well Kwik!

¶r²

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/09/2007 11:51 AM	Alert
Here’s a rather humorous hunting story which deals with the conflict of decheating and seriously skewed expectations. Three years ago, I was invited to go duck hunting on the Rock River. My friend had a young dog that was not very well trained. I kind of weaseled my way into letting Taffey come along. Taffey had just finished up an “off season” of heavy hunt test training, and she was very straight (hard core). It was a perfect morning to take some mallards.....foggy, a slight breeze and cool. The decoys were on one side of the river with a background of a high tree line. We were tucked up tight to a steep bank on the other side. A bunch of mallards wanted in, and we dropped two. One splashed 20 yards in front of us, and the other hit the water about 35 yards downstream. For the record, the inexperienced dog has a “unique” water entry from the boat. Tonka is either picked up and tossed in or shoved over the gunnel off the seat.....depending on where he happens to be at the time. Taffey was airborne when she 1) saw Tonka “launched” and 2) heard the command “Tonka fetch”.....which starts with a “T” and that was close enough for her. Taffey was bearing down on the “easy” duck because Tonka had to come up for air and get his bearings. The other duck was quickly headed downstream toward the bend. Taffey knew all about poison birds, so, I whistled to her, and she turned to look at me. Meanwhile, Tonka continued on oblivious to the whistle because he had no idea what it meant....so far so good. Taffey takes the cast downstream leaving Tonka on his own. There was a strong current, and she made good progress to the rapidly disappearing drake.....so far so good. Tonka was “dragged” back into the boat after a “great” retrieve....so far so good. Taffey started back toward the boat, and she swam upstream just a tiny bit faster than the current was going downstream....and “boy” was she straight....right in the middle of the river where the current was the strongest. It should be mentioned that we had never trained or hunted in river currents before. After maybe ten minutes of very slow progress, the message was clear.....it was going to take way too long. So I whistled her and cast to the bank....repeatedly.....with zero results......so far still not good. Taffey was too focused on doing what she was trained to do. Taking direction from the handler was supposed to be MORE important, but I had not allowed her to learn any alternatives. She was too straight. We untied the boat and retrieved her (and the mallard).

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Jere

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03/09/2007 12:36 PM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 03/09/2007 11:51 AM ...Taffey takes the cast downstream leaving Tonka on his own. There was a strong current, and she made good progress to the rapidly disappearing drake.....so far so good. Tonka was “dragged” back into the boat after a “great” retrieve....so far so good. Taffey started back toward the boat, and she swam upstream just a tiny bit faster than the current was going downstream....and “boy” was she straight....right in the middle of the river where the current was the strongest. It should be mentioned that we had never trained or hunted in river currents before. After maybe ten minutes of very slow progress, the message was clear.....it was going to take way too long. So I whistled her and cast to the bank....repeatedly.....with zero results......so far still not good. Taffey was too focused on doing what she was trained to do. Taking direction from the handler was supposed to be MORE important, but I had not allowed her to learn any alternatives. She was too straight. We untied the boat and retrieved her (and the mallard). Exactly my point re moving water. The cheating dog would run the bank retrieve the duck and return to the bank safely. It would solve intuitively a high school physics problem that gives human student fits. What would have happened had you not had a boat can only be guessed, but it might not have been pleasant.. And if the current had been even swifter, and there were substantial hazards downstream.... Jere

Jere

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03/09/2007 1:02 PM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 03/09/2007 8:44 AM ... 1. With repetition the field trial retriever will almost habitually go straight. In fact, some are naturals at going straight. However, I seriously doubt there will be any active field trial retrievers dealing with “thick nasty prickly desert scrub that does not allow a straight line retrieves, convoluted rims over steep (read vertical sloped) deep canyons, vertical sided, narrow and deep erosion gullies or streams in the desert and bolder fields on steep mountainsides”. I can only see bad things for placing such a dog in these situations. ... 2. edit: There is another reason for going straight which is used quite often....the straight dog disturbs less cover. I'm not too sure I agree with this other than the fact a dog should not hunt on the way to a retrieve. This is more applicable to flushing retrievers. They are suppose to be in range when flushing a bird, and unlike the pointing dog could end up out of range. Thanks, Jim. I generally appreciate the position you presented. 1. Actually, I find hunting dogs naturally go straight to the fall, except when it doesn't make sense to them to do so. Until you got to that last sentence by which you condemn me and a whole bunch of other folks for hunting wild birds in the west with our dogs I agreed with you. Our hunting mutts take these situations in routine stride on a daily basis. Its all part of the game we play. 2. One can apply that "disturbs less cover" requirement to argue FOR bank running. Generally in a cheating situation on water that would result in bank running from the line the shortest time route to the bird will not only expose the dog for less time but also put it in a place (on shore) which could tend to minimize adverse effects on incoming birds. Jere

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03/09/2007 1:22 PM	Alert
"What if's" can fragmenet discussions. However, in this case they were dealt with ahead of time. The possibilies were taken into consideration before....not after. We had a boat, and there were no hazards. There were no risks here. Do you think I would have hunted her when there were no "outs"? You missed the whole point. A certain level of basic handling skills are important for a retriever, and by adding real time hunting experiences the dog is better off. There is no way I would have hunted this river from the shore without a boat. That story was to point out how training and experience can be out of balance. An experienced dog would have known what to do. She wouldn't take to the shore because she wasn't experienced. So what? I knew we had the boat and water issues were covered. I know the river because I've fished it a lot. Accidents and serious problems occur when you do not see the potential for disastor and/or are unprepared. Nothing happended excepting untying a boat. As a physics teacher you probably know how drastically the parameters of a discussion can be altered when a few "What if's........? are dropped. It turns into that infamous "Trig" function.......the tangent.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

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