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keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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03/05/2007 4:01 PM	Alert
When you Guys do marks, How far do you stretch them? I have a 13 month old that I have out to 250 Yards, The starting point is up on a slight hill then he goes through bushes, weeds, then flat, He marks awesome I am even thinking Trials? Do I keep seeing what he can handle? Or let Him get really good were he is at?

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/05/2007 9:55 PM	Alert
keskam, Daisy has been training well, and I have seriously thought about running a few derbies this spring. Taffey is Daisy's mom, and we got a little practice in training for distance a few years ago. A couple of things I learned were to 1) run longer marks without many factors to stretch and 2) expose the pup to factors on the shorter distances. Do this gradually and most pups figure out going long is normal. Here's a page I worked up on Daisy's stretching. It shows some of the set-ups and the progression. ”Stretching Miss Daisy” (link)

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Zeke

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03/06/2007 6:54 AM	Alert
Kwick, If I was a dog, I would want to be one of your dogs. I admire your dedication and thought that goes into your training and posts. good stuff Zeke PS - I can't wait to retire and then get a whole pack of hounds!

MPR Zeke the Wonder Dog HRCH www.freewebs.com/zekethewonderdog PR Director of the Michigan Mafia MM Run-N-Gun Asssociation

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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03/06/2007 7:27 AM	Alert
So Kwick, 1) builds confidence? 2)Then tougher marks at shorter distances will be not be as difficult to the dog because of that confidance? Nice pictures and nice training areas! So I think I am going to stretch him out to 400 this month on flat! Then I well go back down in yardage next month, and add obsticles, water, weeds, hills!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/06/2007 9:11 AM	Alert
Running big marks does not have to be done very often. All you want to instill at this age is the realization that it is possible. MOST of the time Daisy's marks are less than 200 yards. By removing the distance factor we can concentrate on dealing with other factors. We will repeat factors as a theme at least three times before moving on to the next. Then they will be added for combinations as her skills increase. For example we may start running marks that progress to multiple entry/exits. When she is comforatble with those we may then work on cheaty marks... then combine the two. When both are dealt with comfortably then we might add some distance. The next step might be terrain changes leading to more distances. Another area which needs contined exposure is multiples and how each mark relates to another. In this area, there is a need to balance the work between plenty of singles and then deal with how each mark impacts another (in multiples). So my point is distance is not really the big thing in marking. It is a single factor that cannot become out of balance with the overall goals. A dog can't run a big mark unless he can deal with tough factors along the way. Also, on the really long marks (when you decide the timing is correct), the gunner is wearing white and the bumpers are especially visible (larger than 3", white & black with flags). Also, when doing the "big" marks, the gunner should have additional bumpers handy. This way if the young dog shows ANY signs of breaking down, the gunner shoots and throws another bumper. He makes sure the shot attracts the dog's attention before throwing the second (even third) bumper(s). The gunner's judgement and timing is critical. By using this technique, the dog's momentum and focus is maintained, and when he gets to the area of the fall success is probable (because the area has been salted). Also on big marks, pick a fall area where the bumper is easy to see once nearing it. This is the pup's reward for the long run.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri

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03/06/2007 12:25 PM	Alert
Jim, I dont think I have ever run Brady on a mark over 150 yds but I think I may just have to try a few to see how he does. I think there could be something gained by exposing him to longer marks. Joe

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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03/06/2007 1:08 PM	Alert
Jim, so the white the gunner is wearing is also going to help drive him to the bumper for success? Jim thank you for the answers and help!!!!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/06/2007 1:18 PM	Alert
Once getting past the misconception that long marks are only for field trial dogs, there are several benefits for a dog learning to run long marks. First, distance is a factor in marking. Therefore, by running long marks the dog deals with "normal" distances more easily. Secondly, distance erodes control. Therefore, if a dog is comfortable "way out there", you are much more likely to have even better control at shorter distances. Third, if distance is not extended, a dog has a built in barrier or impedence. If the longest marks are only a hundred yards, the dog will have a tendency to breakdown and set up a hunt at that distance . Fourth, long marks teach a dog to focus more intently....not only on the area of the fall, but for longer periods of time. Lastly, (and this is just my personal opinion), since long marks (300+ yards) extend a dog's comfort zone, a pointing retriever's range is "loosened up" by stretching marks. The "boot licker mode" never happens because from the very beginning the pup learns it is OK (and fun) to be "way out there" doing something. edit: the white the gunner is wearing is also going to help drive him to the bumper for success That's what it appears to be, but in reality it's not. The white coat is to allow the dog to "find" where the mark is going to be thrown from. For a correctly conditioned, excellent marker, the white coat means little to the dog once the bumper/bird is in the air. The gunner essentially becomes a potted plant and part of the landscape. (This a topic in itself.)

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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03/06/2007 1:27 PM	Alert
I with you through number 4, Jim....affecting their range in the uplands via long marks is a stretch at best. Dogs don't range in the uplands because they are comfortable out there. It's the stretching out to hit objective that hold birds through exposure and experience at an early age. Some dogs will naturally range further and have more independance. It's up to the owner to provide them the opportunities in the uplands to learn where birds hang out. Which leads to dogs hitting the objectives and driving further in search of birds. It's not something you can teach with planted birds or with retriever drills. Wild birds, different terrain and different conditions.

¶r²

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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03/06/2007 1:58 PM	Alert
I understand about the white now Jim thanks!! and I always change yardage on marks so there is no getting use to a certain yardage!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/06/2007 3:14 PM	Alert
It's not something you can teach with planted birds or with retriever drills. I agree and never implied that. In fact, that borders almost on "smack" (again). It's up to the owner to provide them the opportunities in the uplands to learn where birds hang out. I totally agree with that. All I'm saying is that if you keep your retriever in close and do short control "be near me stuff" all the time, the dog will have a difficut time with range. With "big" distances in retriever work the range aspect is more balanced if the upland is similar. I found it interesting on the the thread about range that a good percentage of PL owners were operating in the 100 yard range. Wow, that is short (or most hunt real heavy cover).

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

ahayes

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03/06/2007 9:18 PM	Alert
Kwick in reading your comments how do you keep a dog from cheating the edges when you are by yourshelf. I'm new at training. Thanks Al

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/06/2007 10:13 PM	Alert
Teaching a dog to take less or more water is a handling skill taught during swim-by. De-cheating is done by handling to the correct line and teaching to go straight. However, there are many factors that tempt a dog to stray from the standard. It is not sound training to handle a dog to a mark, but it is OK to handle to the correct line. When training alone, the handler/gunner (that would be me) is out in the field. Therefore, I handle from the gunner station, but only to correct the line. If it happens too often, we go back to drills or do group training. The first picture is a "cheaty" marking set-up for Daisy. Handling was done from the line in this one because the mark was thrown from a winger. However, if it were a remote line, the dog can just as easily be handled to the correct line from "out there". The second picture is a lining drill which exposes the dog to "cheaty" situations. By using drills like these as regular maintenance drills, the dog stays more honest. The third picture was a remote line set of three "down the shore" singles. All three marks were "cheaty". When Kooly cheated on the first mark, I moved down to a position near the shore and gave a "back" cast which pushed him out. Then he was given an "over" which was the correct line. The second mark was better, but he still needed a slight correction. On the third, which was the most difficult, he lined it. Essentially, where the handler is makes little difference to the dog......as long as the casts are effective.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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03/07/2007 11:46 AM	Alert
There can be misconceptions in how things are written, read and or perceived Jim, you are Da Man and have my up most respect. Lastly, (and this is just my personal opinion), since long marks (300+ yards) extend a dog's comfort zone, a pointing retriever's range is "loosened up" by stretching marks. The "boot licker mode" never happens because from the very beginning the pup learns it is OK (and fun) to be "way out there" doing something. I’ll try to word this differently and please do not take this personally. It’s just something I have a difficult time buying and happen to disagree. Do most FT and hunt test retrievers range when hunting in the uplands? With your theory, it would seem to be natural since they are comfortable at a distance. I can't help but have passion because I know the time and effort needed to develop a top notch upland dog. Upland training, range and drive to find birds is not something I take lightly or for granted. After 35 years of messin around with upland dogs, my passion for upland training is no different than your passion for retriever training. I’ve learned a little, the dogs have learned a little and it’s high on my radar screen. I believe there is some misconception in the term boot lickers and range in the uplands. A boot licker can be out there 100 yards or 200 yards plus. Plodding along, nose to the ground, smelling every mouse, rat or ground squirrel that it comes across. To me, it's not necessarily the distance that makes a boot licker or a plodder (though that plays in to it). It how the dog casts and hunts in the uplands. Whether they like to be a 100 yards away or 500 yards away it's about hitting the objectives and finding birds! Along with how they go about it. Running hard, head in the air, tail cracking with animation. Running the edges of tree lines, ditches or fields and then casting to the next objective. A dog that has the drive to push and search for birds when they are scarce. Not something that just happens or should be taken lightly. Sure didn’t mean to side track your thread Kevin. It’s the passion of pointing dogs coming out in me and I have to speak up when that passion comes out. IMHO A dog ranges and drives to find birds because it is nurtured and developed in the upland fields at an early age, not because they feel comfortable at a distance!

¶r²

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/07/2007 1:18 PM	Alert
Do most FT and hunt test retrievers range when hunting in the uplands? They would if allowed, but a very high percentage of FT and hunt test dogs are hunted as flushers. The issue is teaching them to stay in gun range (at first) because they want to range (after they get a taste of birds). I understand the idea of early exposure and the value. However, there are many examples of dogs that missed that early window of opportunity that still perform well with good range when given a chance. I looked at this issue a bit more (see new thread). It isn't that I don't agree that early exposure to the upland is good, and early retriever work may cut in to the opportunities, but if a dog goes another route there are things which can be done to reduce the effects. They are not drills or skills taught in retrieving, but the manner in which control is develped and distance is handled. The spirit of the dog is left intact with no perception of distance barriers. At that time the dog starts the same process as a young dog without a weighty set of baggage to drag along. I did create a new topic for this because stretching them on marks is different than range.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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03/07/2007 5:07 PM	Alert
Thats OK Trout!!! Knowledge is knowledge I think the more of this that is on the site the more it will help others in there training

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

ahayes

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03/07/2007 5:34 PM	Alert
kwick, Thanks alot for the info and the diagrams. Al

KwickLabs
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03/07/2007 6:57 PM	Alert
Here's the diagram showing how a dog would probably cheat. Frankly, the exercise is set-up so the dog will cheat. Some dogs are just naturally honest most of the time, but it is sound practice to de-cheat every dog. The e-collar does not come into play unless the dog fails to obey the sit command. If this becomes an issue, it is better to discontinue decheating for the time being as the necessary skills for handling are not in place. De-cheating is a teaching exercise and attrition is the tool (not the e-collar). The dog is whistle sat at the point indicated in the picture. All efforts are geared to get the dog into the water. Swim-by provides the skill. If the dog does not take the first cast, he is brought back to the same spot, put at sit and again cast over into the water. This is patiently repeated until he makes the right choice. The meaning of attrition is to wear down the resistance to a given order. The dog wants to go one way and you are "explaining" through attrition the correct choice. It is critical for a trainer to have already established a teaching mode. Loosing patience, acting upset and rushing the process is counter- productive. De-cheating is a rewarding exercise which can validate a trainer as a teacher. A dog deserves this kind of an approach. As was mentioned before, long marks become much more difficult if the dog cannot maintain a straight line. In hunt tests and field trials, marks will be placed so that cheating pays a heavy price.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

hooligan
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03/07/2007 8:42 PM	Alert
Kwick, that last drawing makes more sense to me than anything else I ever heard or saw about cheating-thanks. One question-if the dog properly marked the fall, would it still cheat? Looks like it is running to the gunner-or is that the beginning of running the bank? Thanks.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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03/08/2007 12:32 AM	Alert
The mark is not long, and the pup is confident about where it is. In the rush to get there quicker, she cheats. You are correct. The route appears to have her "running at the gunner", but I can assure you that's not reason for the path. Daisy would have self-corrected to the area of the fall and returned the same way if allowed. She doesn't see the gunner as anything significant. As I have mentioned before, when marking, dogs are focused on the area of the fall, and the gunner (once his job is completed) becomes a "potted plant".

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

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