farmershy
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| 02/21/2007 7:31 AM |
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I have a 6 month PL that has retrieved well since he was a younger. Now he has just started (within the last month) to go out get the bumper and then proceed to bring it back dance around me not giving it to me and making my blood boil. Now if I put a check cord on him he brings it back to hand everytime. The minute I take it off he starts his playing and my blood pressure rises.
I am new to this so i am guessing FF is next???
All feedback is needed.
Thanks
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 02/21/2007 7:47 AM |
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Have you formalized OB yet? Start with this, then FF.
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 02/21/2007 9:13 AM |
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That behavior is absolutely normal.
Awhile back I heard a trainer's perfect description of the event, "OK, you /&%#! little furball........the honeymoon is over."
It is time for formal OB.  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
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Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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farmershy
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| 02/21/2007 9:17 AM |
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I feel that I need to be stricter on the OB...He sits and comes but it is not as sharp as it needs to be.....
My take is he knows what he is suppose to do but he chooses to play....So that is where the strict OB and then FF comes in.....correct?
Thanks...more feedback please |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 02/21/2007 9:47 AM |
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You need to formalize OB, making them commands rather than requests. Start training for 10 or 15 minutes a day on OB, requiring that the pup obeys. This is really when you should start to get a book or program together, as it can really help transition you into the training.
Like Kwick so elegantly mentioned  , this is a turning point. From now on, if you give a command, you had better be in a position to back it up. You only give the pup one chance to obey on their terms, the second is all you. The better you are at this, the better they are going to respond when off lead and into trouble.
OB is much easier said than done. Strive for perfection, because you're not going to get it. Pros are great at showing us how we suck at our standard of OB.
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
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| 02/21/2007 2:24 PM |
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I experienced this too. It was tempting to remove some forms of control i.e. checkcord, leash, etc. during yard drills because he performed so well during our OB sessions. I found however that he would do things that I wouldn't be in a position to correct whenever the control was removed.
Basicallly for me, it was just a tendancy to want to rush through parts of his training and reap the benefits of certain accomplishments before he was truly ready. My suggestion would be to remain consistent with your control and keep hammering the formal OB. The day will eventually come where he can perform the drills with less control, but you need a method of correction this behavior as soon as it happens.
Daily OB sessions of 10-15 minutes work wonders. Then keep the checkcord on him during his yard drillls.
Good Luck
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keskam
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| 02/21/2007 6:28 PM |
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| If you are training him for OB then I would have him on a check cord only because the golden rule of training is "Never Give A Command You Cant Inforce" If he is off the check cord you have no way to inforce any commands at his playful age. If you get upset while traning the dog Stop and put him up for awhile Thats what I had to do when I first started to train, now I just laugh at myself wondering how did I get him this far?? You are Filling up the notebook (His mind) good or bad . The more positive the dog sees especially at his age the faster he gets it ,I believe!!! And keep the traing sessions shortyou will accomplish more than a drawn out session and ALWAYS end it on a positive note!! GOOD LUCK Kevin PS sounds like he knows he is working with the check cord, And off the cord is fun and games! |
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farmershy
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| 02/22/2007 6:58 AM |
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Thanks for all the replies!
I worked strict with him last night and he responded well. Worked on sit over again..he does this pretty well , and really did "here" he did well! You can really tell the differnece in his actions as I was more strict. We started and ended with some bumper throws and he did good.....he did on the last bumper when we finished kinda play a little but when I sturned(not yelled) my command he came back. Now I did not have him on a cord........
But I do have the taboo question......I have worked my pointers with a e collar. I read in the Knutson book about collar conditioning and understand all of this....
So if he continues to want to play off the cord is the collar then next option?
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 02/22/2007 7:30 AM |
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Get formal OB completely solidified, and then collar condition. There are some people out there today that still do not use an e-collar, and have their dogs up to top levels. You do not teach with a collar, you do that with a choke chain and leash. The dog needs to FULLY understand the commands before moving on. You need to be doing hard OB for a lot longer before you CC, if you ask me. I would however start to put the collar on him, just not turn it on. This will help with him becoming collar wise. Until then, keep the leash on him at all times. When he gets so used to obeying you because you always have control, then on the rare occasion that you don't, he won't think about it.
You need to read up on CC work, and watch a video as well, before doing it. It's all about timing, and if you're not ready it will haunt you.
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
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farmershy
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| 02/22/2007 9:23 AM |
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I'm with you 100% Jay!...I felt better last night after working with him better than I did Tues. I think what I am doing is not making sure I am in control at all times. I thought back and I would tell him here and he would not come and I would not have a way to enforce it...so the check cord has given me that back.....I need to keep thinking baby steps not leaps..
Thanks for getting my head back on track.... |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 02/22/2007 10:06 AM |
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Hey, if it makes you feel any better.......Daisy is almost 20 months old, and we work on OB at every stage of each day. If I don't........does 57 pound, yellow butterfly mean anything? It has to become a habit. After "getting there", the term maintenance surfaces.
Jay said, "Pros are great at showing us how we suck at our standard of OB."
When I sent Daisy off to a Pro's for two months of training and an evaluation, I thought her OB was "pretty good". Then in September (after she had been back home for awhile), I wrote this.
"I'm beginning to learn that 95% OB is not enough...and 85% is much worse.........but 75% is pretty good." KwickLabs Sept., 2006
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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farmershy
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| 02/22/2007 11:52 AM |
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I here you Kwik....if you don't mind what Pro did you use?....'
If all else I may need to send him out but it seems the closet "Pro" is around 3 hours away from St Louis |
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farmershy
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| 02/23/2007 6:34 AM |
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Update: He did very well least night kinda supreised me...but everything was on the cord .....so my thoughts are that I need to keep him on the cord and be patient for the long haul..... |
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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas
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| 02/25/2007 12:33 PM |
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Have you done any bird work, if not that is the trap that PL owners get into. Formal OB before bird work. It would be better for that dog to only learn here and sit until next bird season if you plan on that being the only bird work the dog receives.
Bird Work First!!!!!!! |
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farmershy
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| 02/25/2007 4:54 PM |
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| Oakcreek...What do you mean by bird work? I think I know what you are saying but want to make sure |
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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas
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| 02/25/2007 6:16 PM |
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| Put the pup on birds, planted birds. Or if you have a lot of wild birds. Pl owners need to let their dogs learn to be bird dogs before their owners turn them into little obedient machines. |
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farmershy
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| 02/25/2007 7:23 PM |
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| That's what I thought...I have had him on birds since he was 3 months....I would say we have had over 50 contacts with birds all together....he does great on birds, he points and holds well for a 6 month old...I will start whoa training over the summer..... |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 02/26/2007 7:11 AM |
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Oakcreek you say "little obedient machines" like it is a bad thing. 
I do agree it is very important to get a pup "imprinted" with birds before formal OB, but I also think "birds first" can mean a whole bunch of different things. Daisy was into strict (that would be like in "little machine") OB at 6 months and soon after FF'd. However, there is no question her deep interest in birds was well established before OB. It was quality.......not quantity.
Here is a picture of Daisy at 4 months with a pheasant that was shot over her. Just as a side note.....gun conditioning was in place, "here" was understood and pheasants were last on the list of "birds first".  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas
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| 02/26/2007 7:42 AM |
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| I think the, for the most part, the hard core OB that most PL owners ingrain in their upland dogs is fairly un-needed and actually detrimental to the final hunting product. It is my opinion that as little OB should be done on upland dogs as possible, some dogs do need a lot more then others to get desired responses. You have to understand that I expect much more out of my dogs then most, I have tried the "few bird contacts and then OB" approach, just hasn't worked for me. It slows them down, takes away from their point, cuts the range, and overall slows down progress. Since I raise PL's the upland portion of their ability is first, that is what 90% of my customers are looking for. After they have proven themselves upland hunting, then they go into waterfowl training where OB is a little more of a factor. I don't see why OB should be such a factor before the age of 1-1 1/2. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 02/26/2007 8:42 AM |
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It slows them down, takes away from their point, cuts the range, and overall slows down progress.
Well, my experience with three well bred dogs does not support that at all......not even close. Maybe it has to do with how it is done or my dogs are just exceptions. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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