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keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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02/15/2007 8:03 AM	Alert
My Question is "What do you look for in a Professional Trainer?" Troutbum brought this to mind that all pros are not created equally there is more than one way to skin a cat! Is it finances? How many Titles they have? Is it Dedication to your dog?( SOME TRAINERS MAY HAVE WAY TO MANY DOGS TO TRAIN NOT GIVING YOURS ENOUGH TIME?). Is it there Dedication to there own dogs? I would like to have the pros answer this to if they were looking to send there dogs to another pro!!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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02/15/2007 8:14 AM	Alert
Questions I would ask yourself, and then evaluate trainers based off of the info. What do you want out of the dog? Upland only, hunter only, HT, FT. Location? Training with the trainer is important, but if you can travel then go for it. Have you watched any trainers work or test dogs? I love to watch trainers at tests, I think that you can tell alot about how they train by their actions at the line, but watching them train is even better. Some trainers tend to be more hard handed, while others are not. Which one do you prefer, and which one does your dog need? Watching their dogs perform at the tests and in training really shows the bread and butter. Do their dogs have a lot of drive, do they cower, do they obey, do they do what you want them to do? Then, make sure and talk to the trainer at length about what you want. If you don't trust your trainer, then you need to go to someone else. This is what I would ask at least. I've never done it, so I can't say from experience. Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness. GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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02/15/2007 8:58 AM	Alert
Jay, You said some trainers tend to be Hard Handed while others are not? Wouldnt that be the trainers responsibilty to read the dog and determine how to train it?

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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02/15/2007 9:07 AM	Alert
Jay, good post! Note that the evaluation of a potential pro is not a "one shot" deal. Also, I would focus on "what you see" rather than "what you hear" about or from any pro. If both match up ("see" & "hear") and you are comfortable, then you've done it right. It is almost like buying a puppy.......do the research.......and take your time.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!

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02/15/2007 9:33 AM	Alert
I have seen a few trainers that it seems the dogs cower as Jay put it. I would not use those few/(that one really) trainer. The APLA tests are a great place to watch this-Working the events gets you close to the action. You can see some of these pros run sometimes 6 to 10 dogs in a weekend. IMHO the dogs should be happy to be doing what they are doing. If they are not-then worries can be formed.

Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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02/15/2007 10:35 AM	Alert
Posted By keskam on 02/15/2007 8:58 AM Jay, You said some trainers tend to be Hard Handed while others are not? Wouldnt that be the trainers responsibilty to read the dog and determine how to train it? Yes, but different trainers train differently. Some have the skill to get inside the dogs head, while others force the dog to do what they want. Both prove to be productive, so it falls along what lines you want. Like you mentioned, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I've seen one trainer use a stun gun type of device on a rump to get his dog to stay steady, while others train the same high powered dogs to FT status using a choke chain and keep heeling backwards. Now don't get me wrong, even the ones that don't use a lot of pressure, still use it, they just use it when they read that the dog needs it. If you know how to do it, you can make one large correction mean way more than lots of littler/or larger ones. It's all how you read the dog, and know the proper timing. So, you have to choose which style you like the best. Go and watch the dogs. If they cower under hand, then you may have a heavy hitter. If they go to the line full of joy, then it is probably the opposite. How does the trainer talk to the dog? Calm, but demanding, or threatening? How does the dog act when away from the trainer? This can sometimes be tricky, because a lot of control is needed on blinds, and once again, every trainer has a different method. Some like to let the dog go out, and these will show high style, but often not as good of control. Others handle a lot, so their style isn't as high as they are a little bit slower. They however handle like a dream, never blowing a whistle or cast. It's not that the handler is hard handed, but that control may be established by more repetition. Bare miniumum, I would go watch a trainer at a test, not telling the trainer until the end, and then go watch the trainer train. They generally don't try and hide anything. In fact, most of the heavy handed people are usually a little bit arrogant about being so. If you feel that this is wha your dog needs, then go for it. If not, then go the other way. Both ways have proven to be effective. Thanks Kwick! I hope that this one didn't ruin the soup. Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness. GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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02/15/2007 10:56 AM	Alert
I was doing alot of driving this morning thinking about this and what I would look for First! I think first I would want to hear there "PASSION" for training, I would like to hear their heart! I participated and watched alot of hunt tests last year, Alot of very good trainers with alot of titled dogs! But a few that I talked to treated it like just another pay check! The passion wasnt there!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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02/15/2007 2:07 PM	Alert
There are some really good thoughts and suggestion going here. Number of dogs the trainer has on a string is a big one. I witnessed an unnamed trainer up in the NB Sandhills with 50-60 dogs on a his string. Their owners thinking their dogs were going to the "prairee" for the summer and training on wild birds. After spending some time and getting to know his bird boy, found out only a dozen or so of the very best dogs ever got off the stake out chain. This is not the norm by any means, I think most pros will give you what you pay for. I especially like keskam's thoughts on a trainer with "PASSION". Taking it a step further I would watch for trainers running dogs that show "PASSION". Does the dog look like it is having fun & performing with style. Are they pointing with style, flagging, head movement? Most pros would have to have passion for bird dogs otherwise they wouldn't be doing it for a living. I suspect those that have been making a living at it for 20 yrs or so would show less passion than the trainer just out of the chutes. Doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't enjoy it as much or as good of a trainer...could be. keskan, since you were at a lot of hunt tests this last year. Did you happen to see Gary Rupell at any of them? Just curious and wonder how his dogs look. He is a Mike Gould disciple that trains dogs north of Elizabeth. I doubt he uses e-collars, I know Mike doesn't.

¶r²

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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02/15/2007 2:43 PM	Alert
TroutBum, I cant say that I did or DIdnt talk to him, But I think I would like to, He sounds like I would relate to him. I like to train with alot of positive reinforcement, afterall LABS want to please so I kind of feed of that. some trainers would say I talk to much to the dog, but they get excited and want to do more!! So yes I would like to talk to him about training without a E-collar if possible I actually met a whole new group of fabulous people last year at those tests, People I can relate to

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

Larry Moderator
Independence, KS

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02/15/2007 6:05 PM	Alert
Trainers are a match to your needs, your dogs temperment, and his results with your dog and in how much time. All these items are deep and broad areas. If you think not, just send your dog to a trainer and you see how big these areas are. Judge not only how many dogs he has but how he trains vs how often he tells you he trains. If you want hunt tests, what is his hunt test schedule. How many test per month? Does he go north in the summer or south for the winter? Measure this against your goals. Judge his success rate. Understand clearly what his work ethic is for training sessions per week. Does he measure it? Get first hand references. Go to several hunt tests and watch the different pros run dogs to get a handle on their style and success/pass rate. For your planned dog goals and money spent with the trainer, use the factor of 2! Twice the money you expected to spent, or get half the results you expected. What your dog benefitted with the trainer will be lost in short if you don't go out and train with the trainer's correction style. Go train often with your trainer and your dog. If he won't let you do this, go someplace else. Lastly, if your dog isn't making progress with one trainer. Don't blame the dog or the trainer. Go find another trainer. Then, see if the results are the different. Then, judge the first trainer and your dog. Like many things in life, one normally get's what he pays for. That is quite often the case with trainer's and their fees.

Larry, the pointing lab enthusiast GMPR HRCH Raider's Jumpin Jack Flash MH Master National Hall of Fame 4xGMPR HRCH Cypress Creek Harleys MS Mac MH Master National Hunter MPR HR HPK Good Golly Miss Molly SH 3xNBDCA Ch. APR Jack's Bin Der Dun Dat JH

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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02/16/2007 9:41 AM	Alert
One thing I always had difficulty dealing with when sending a dog off to a pro was the length of time my dog actually had individual attention. For example in retriever training.....yardwork in the morning and training set-ups in the afternoon, translates to individual attention for maybe a total of 30 minutes per day. Now that 30 minutes is pro talent and skill, and it seems to work. However, it still bothers me some. Any input?

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

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02/16/2007 10:29 AM	Alert
Is less more sometimes Kwick? I agree with you, however, sometimes I think that I give my dog too much attention... Probably is where he picks up most of his bad habits

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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02/16/2007 10:35 AM	Alert
Where to send my dog came down to a "where am I going to be able to visit and learn" decision between the trainers I considered-since I couldn't train my dog myself, I wanted to be able to learn as much as I could about what my dog was learning, and how to use his training. I did all the "homework"-visited, got feed back, etc.-but that was the deciding factor. Kwick, I hate dropping off my dog! He spends lots of time alone (and his experience is not all wonderful, especially the FF part), in a kennel or on a dog truck, outside in the cold...but, that's really MY problem. I can't do the training-so that's what has to happen to get the dog trained. And I learned last time that his experience doesn't change his personality, so I just grin and bear it. He is happy when I see him, and getting to do (some of) what he loves-so it can't be all bad. He certainly isn't being mistreated-he just isn't experiencing the comforts of home. I know that my trainer gets to know my dog as an individual (from what he knows about my dog, and the way his training starts), and that he likes dogs and working with them, so I trust him. The hardest thing for me is the "progress report from the trainer" issue. I know that, because I want to learn, I probably want lots more detail (and more often) than it is reasonable to expect to get from a trainer-both because it is time consuming for them, and because not much changes from day to day (more a cumulative process). But, even with that said, I'd like and appreciate more than I get. One on one feedback is great when I am there, and he is very patient about explaining to me and showing me how it all works, so I am VERY grateful for that!

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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02/16/2007 11:31 AM	Alert
Lardy once said that he only spent about 20 minutes on a dog in one day. 5 minutes in the morning on some OB or drill work, then 15 running marks and blinds in the afternoon. He takes his dogs to NFC status, and there is no way that I could even imagine doing that. Yes, less can mean more. Of course, if you don't know as much, then it takes more time to accomplish the same thing. Kwick, how old is Brian? Just wondering. Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness. GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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02/16/2007 11:32 AM	Alert
I think you made a wise choice Hooli especially with the abiltiy to visit and learn. I'm with you, I like having them around. Years ago I sent a young dog with AA potential to spend the summer on the Canadian prairees with a pro. No way to check on her progress and tough to visit since they were 800 miles from home. 30 minutes but a consistent 30 minutes a day for 6 days a week. Assuming the pro only has 16 dogs on their string. 8 hours training dogs and another 1-2 hours a day feeding, cleaning kennels and exercising them. Not to mention they probably know what the heck they are doing. They're through experimenting and have trained hundreds if not thousands of dogs. Another thing to consider is the upland training with a PL. Are they training on wild birds, liberated birds, planted birds or birds in launchers? Probably why the APLA secretary is up there in my estimation. You won't find her planting any birds or see any launchers or check cords in her opperation.

¶r²

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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02/16/2007 2:18 PM	Alert
Of course, if you don't know as much, then it takes more time to accomplish the same thing. Exactly....(kind of)! The more time "thing" makes sense (and works), but accomplishing the same thing is a huge stretch. Brian is younger than me. Not sure......around 35?

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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02/16/2007 4:30 PM	Alert
Kwick, As a younger dog do you think the dogs attention or learning span as being short, has anything to do with the time that the trainer spends with the dog? I noticed when we were FF jake if we went to long I seen the productivity go downhill!!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

KwickLabs
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02/16/2007 7:50 PM	Alert
One thing I learned along time ago as a teacher of humans, the first five minutes of a lesson is when the most learning takes place. Not sure there is the same connection with dogs, but it is a function of brain activity. Therefore, with a pro trainer it stands to reason he is not going to waste any time, and he will be very effective because the dog is mentally focused. Also, by nature dogs don't need extended attention......inspite of what most people would like to believe. Short bursts once in awhile are very fullfilling to a dog. Being on a pro truck emphasizes the confine, train and confine concept. They come out ready to maximize their alloted time. That's one reason why a short training session in the morning and another in the afternoon work so well. I've switched over to training twice a day. I don't spend any more total time....it is just split up, but that way I have two of those five minute windows of opportunity instead of one (per day). Over a period of even a few weeks there is much to be gained by this approach. Also, the dog is not worn down by asking him to perform when his brain readiness has diminished. One last aspect of learning which is enhanced by brief lessons is an excited dog is operating in the adrenalin zone and this has a great impact on memory. A brief, exciting lesson is more likely to be remembered and the carryover to the next day will enhance the new lesson. Most of this supports the idea that "less is better". Keep in mind that if something negative happens and it is maximized, the adrenalin from a negative situation will cause it to be remember, too. It is not good for a dog to have bad memories. If you have only one dog, there is the temptation to try and do two or three different things right in a row. This means once you have gone beyond the "five minute window", efficiency will begin to drop off. The dog will not be as focused and the training session turns more to being work rather than exciting fun. However, changing from one lesson to another with a small break in the action can open another short window. When training more than one dog there is the built in advantaged of....sitting out, chain ganged or placed back on the truck for awhile. These are all very effective at getting a dog ready to learn again. Now if you have a "manic" training dog driven by the love of action and a desire for more adrenalin.........it ends up being an exersise in when do you quit? The question becomes is the dog learning anything or just going through the motions because he can't help himself? In summary....brief, well thought out lessons are the most effective. Two short lessons separated with a break are much more effective than one long session. Knowing how to recognize that a lesson is going "into the tank" and minimizing a "fight" is important. And most importantly.....take advantage of a dog's initial eagerness and readiness to learn. keskam. your comment on FF is right on target. I usually do two FF sessions per day with a pup. However, they never last more than five minutes. The whole focus is to look for small improvements and/or don't loose any ground. In five minutes you can accomplish that.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Jere

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02/16/2007 8:30 PM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 02/16/2007 9:41 AM One thing I always had difficulty dealing with when sending a dog off to a pro was the length of time my dog actually had individual attention. For example in retriever training.....yardwork in the morning and training set-ups in the afternoon, translates to individual attention for maybe a total of 30 minutes per day. Now that 30 minutes is pro talent and skill, and it seems to work. However, it still bothers me some. Any input? When I've trained with the pointer folks down south we generally put out three birds and work the dog. When the dog shows advancement from the last time out the lesson is over for the day. This might take one bird or three (rarely more). The whole lesson could be five minutes or 15 - 20. About 30 of these sessions over three months and the dog is ready to hunt. There is good reason to stop on a good note (the last experience is the one most easily remembered and may be the only one) and rest the dog (get that experience into long term memory). One person I know suggests several days rest. Most overnight. One cited work on dogs by Russian scientists that showed the dog replaying brainwaves in sleep three days after an experience. I have never been able to find that reference (just as well, my Russian is pretty weak). Recently though, there has been work reported on rats learning to run a maze that essentially show the same phenomenon though the rats replay the maze learning brainwave sequence backwards. The replaying is necessary for long term memory formation. The researchers believe human brains function similarly to solidify learning experiences in long term memory. Dogs must be the same. It is surely the quality of the time the pro spends with your dog that is important, not the duration. When you calculate it out, compared to boarding a dog with no training at all, most training rates I've heard of are quite a bargain. Jere

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02/21/2007 3:08 PM	Alert
If I were looking to send my dog to a professional trainer, there'd be about a handful in the whole country. I understand why people don't like to do it or are confused and unsure. It'd be great to have a 'doggie-cam' so we could all see what a series of days really looked like. For me, what would matter is what is the inside of the trainer really made up of. I've watched "pro" trainers yell at their clients or at judges or at someone they are unhappy with. If a person looses their temper with everyone watching, can you imagine what they do when they loose their temper on a defenseless animal with no one around to see? To be a successful trainer in my eyes, it has to be about something a lot more than the money. Take 2 or 3 extra dogs and you have a whole lot more money. But if that costs the quality of the work with the dogs the trainer ultimately looses. It has to be about getting something accomplished between you and the dog on a long, hard day when it would be easier to go inside and have an iced tea. It has to be about getting the dog to 'get something' that is really important, when no one is around to admire or even notice. It has to be about making something really good out of what is in a dog, even if doesn't seem important to anyone else. It is about believing in the dog and it's ultimate value and worthiness, and finding the ways to make the dog see the same thing. It has to be a 'thing' between the trainer and the dog and the result of that great 'thing' is a dog doing more than anyone expected, and believing it is a good thing. Then when you have that, you can get titles or performances or whatever external things seem important to the check writer. Being a good pro doesn't mean looking right to prospective clients, though that is usually a result. It is what happens when nobody is watching and nobody will ever know. It is the extra effort because you have the passion that was mentioned, because you believe it is more important than anything else you are doing. And just like retrieving and pointing in our dogs, it has to be there on the inside. If someone like that worked with my dog, I know whatever time they spent was the right amount of time, and whatever they did to communicate with the dog was just that: communication, not punishment or retribution. It is really, really hard to be a trainer, and I respect everybody who works at it. It is something else to be one of those like my father was, where the horse was always better off with my Dad than with the owner. Lardy is one of those. I don't think trainers are like donut manufacturers. They can be I guess, but to me it is more like painters or musicians. It is an activity of creation and expansion, not widget stamping. Look for one of those and your dog will be more like a canvas and not a thing to be stamped into the right geometry. Julie

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