mattkeenan
Salem, OR
Advanced
Online Status:
Posts:184
 |
| 02/09/2007 8:12 PM |
 Alert
|
I posted a reply to the discussion several weeks ago involving de-chasing pup to birds. I wondered why I never saw a reply - and it's because my post was never posted! anyway, in the course the of the thread... I never actually understood the fundamental task of de-chasing, and "passive" training that Julie mentioned. Does this just mean putting pup on whoa in the yard, letting a bird flap around, and burning or scolding her for chasing - as opposed to waiting until it happens in the field? I guess I'm just looking for a basic outline of how to de-chase. Any info would be great!
Thanks,
Matt |
|
Matthew Keenan
matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com |
|
Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
Master
Online Status:
Posts:559
|
| 02/09/2007 9:31 PM |
Alert
|
Before you begin to de-chase, your dog must be strong on his/her obedience. The main goal in the de-chasing process is to be able to give a known obedience command "here" and use the correction for not responding to the "here" command rather than giving chase. So when you are in the field and your dog starts to chase the bird, you say "here" nick "here" until the dog gives up on the chase and returns to you. Your dog should be collar conditioned as well before you do this. But as I said before, the correction you give is for not responding to the obedience command "here". If your dog returns to you immediately after you say "here", then he/she is "de-chased".
Rob |
|
Home of:
CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick"
PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket"
CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"
|
|
keskam
Pierce, Colorado
Master
Online Status:
Posts:989
|
| 02/10/2007 8:26 AM |
Alert
|
Good reply Rob |
|
HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
|
Doc_E
N.E. WA state
Grand Master
Online Status:
Posts:1023
|
| 02/10/2007 9:45 AM |
Alert
|
Instead of recalling the dog with HERE, I prefer to blow a (take your pick) SIT -- STOP -- WHOA whistle.
Why would you call the dog in?
. |
|
Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
|
staunch
Certified
Online Status:
Posts:74
|
|
Jere
Advanced
Online Status:
Posts:355
|
| 02/10/2007 12:10 PM |
Alert
|
I prefer to expose the dog to birds it can not catch until the dog voluntarily ceases the flush/chase behavior. (This would usually mean wild birds but I'm assured by some that well flight conditioned pen raised birds do exist.) My observation (with two Labradors) has been that shortly after this happens the dog begins to naturally (flash) point these birds. Personally, I would be leery of investing much additional time in this aspect of a dog's field performance (pointing and associated manners) if it did not display natural pointing after a "reasonable" period of such exposure. Sometimes it makes more sense to "Get yourself another dog." (Quote is from James Lamb Free's book, "Training Your Retriever" page 38)
Ideally the West system of developing a bird dog's manners on game which I use starts with this step. But not every practitioner goes so far as to wait for the dog to begin flash pointing although with a well bred dog of a pointing breed this shouldn't take very long. And most probably use carded wild caught pigeons at this step as few actually have access to great quantities of wild birds anywhere in the country. So, some will very quickly transition to check cord work in which the dog that charges/flushes/attempts to chase the bird it flushed is stopped from chase with the check cord. Clearly this process does not rely on a solid response to any obedience command and therefore takes much less time and effort while concentrating the lesson on the issue of the flush rather than a possible refusal of an obedience command.
With this process the basic manners: steadiness on point, stop on wild flush, steady to wing, shot and fall, backing; are established (but not expected to be perfect without additional work) in some thirty or so days of work spread out over three months in a well bred pointing breed dog. This would include transition from checkcord to ecollar and from carded pigeons to pen reared gamebirds flown into the training field. The dog is, at this juncture, ready to go hunting but not necessarily expected to maintain manners without additional work which, ideally, would come during that first hunting season in the field on actual wild birds.
jere |
|
|
|
Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
Master
Online Status:
Posts:559
|
| 02/10/2007 4:29 PM |
Alert
|
Staunch,
I would say that a dog is "de-chased" when you are able to call him/her off of the chase EVERY you call them off. What you described is what I would call steady to wing which would be the next level. Hopefully when a dog is de-chased enough, they will simply stay put due to the fact that they have been called off of the chase every time.
Maybe we're just splitting hairs, but that would be my definition.
Rob
P.S. Let me know when you'd like to go out to the B- |
|
Home of:
CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick"
PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket"
CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"
|
|
Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
Master
Online Status:
Posts:559
|
| 02/10/2007 4:31 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Rob G on 02/10/2007 4:29 PM
Staunch,
I would say that a dog is "de-chased" when you are able to call him/her off of the chase EVERY you call them off. What you described is what I would call steady to wing which would be the next level. Hopefully when a dog is de-chased enough, they will simply stay put due to the fact that they have been called off of the chase every time.
Maybe we're just splitting hairs, but that would be my definition.
Rob
P.S. Let me know when you'd like to go out to the B=====.
|
|
Home of:
CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick"
PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket"
CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"
|
|
HuntingMc
Kentucky
Certified
Online Status:
Posts:27
|
| 02/10/2007 5:06 PM |
Alert
|
Why call the dog in?
If it is chasing the bird it either broke on shot or bumped the bird. The only two commands I can see using would be whoa or NO!!. I used this with my GSPs but I found out that just Nick nick nick till they stopped worked better.
My logic is.... I don't command them to whoa on birds they do it themselves. If they break I pick them up put them back where they were supposed to be. If they chase I don't say anything either just the nick nick nick or as my mentor once told me "he's a hard head your gonna have to burn him to a halt"
Maybe I am missing something. (not an unusual circumstance) Please let me know what you all think. |
|
|
|
KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
Master
Online Status:
Posts:679
|
| 02/10/2007 7:32 PM |
Alert
|
| Go back and read the "Holding Point" thread. Dechasing is discussed in detail. |
|
Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
----------------------------------
"Excellence is Expected" |
|
APLA Secretary
Advanced
Online Status:
Posts:201
|
| 02/21/2007 3:22 PM |
Alert
|
Hee hee. There is not enough room to describe everything. "here" is used to give the dog a task that is not chasing. A dog dechased does not run to you but does as Staunch says, doesn't chase. Rob, I love you, you know that, but a dechased dog isn't one that can be called off a chase - that is a dog needing dechased. A dechased dogs stops when a bird flushes and watches it go. It is a subtle psychology that doesn't seem obvious the first time you think about it. But, with pointing Labs, when you give them something else to do when they wish to chase, and they do not associate it directly with locating a bird, it winds up getting a dog that points a bird that moves or flushes to remain in place until something else happens, like shooting it or cuing the dog to hunt again. If it didn't work super well I wouldn't do it with every single dog I ever train, pointing or flushing.
Doc, you are my favorite person in the whole world, but I don't have them sit just because I don't ask my dogs to sit to flush or shot. If they are pointing I expect the same behavior when a bird flushes as when they aren't pointing and a bird flushes. Besides, I don't have younger dogs that can sit on a whistle, only the more advanced guys, so I need them to just not chase. But other folks have other ways....
Julie |
|
|
|
Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
Master
Online Status:
Posts:559
|
| 02/21/2007 3:32 PM |
Alert
|
Julie,
It sounds like "de-chasing" is the same as "steady to wing". If not, how would they differ?
Rob |
|
Home of:
CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick"
PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket"
CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"
|
|
APLA Secretary
Advanced
Online Status:
Posts:201
|
| 02/21/2007 4:33 PM |
Alert
|
| When a dog is dechased, it is steady to wing. But it also has had its thinking changed a bit. And that comes into play in other places, just as indirect pressure often helps mouth problems and many, many others. It doesn't have much to do with hold or fetch, but indirect pressure on sit or here makes a dog think about things differently and their behavior changes without having to go after hold or force fetch, which often makes the problem worse. People can debate this (I know you are not doing that Rob) as much as they want, until they actually do it with a couple of dogs. When you see the affects of indirect pressure this way, then it it understandable. But just as people don't understand when I tell them to get after their dog on sit when they having dropsy or play-with-it problems, when they see it work then it all makes sense. |
|
|
|
Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
Master
Online Status:
Posts:559
|
| 02/21/2007 4:38 PM |
Alert
|
Thanks for the explanation. It takes a few times of hearing the same thing before it begins to take hold!!! Someday I'll get it right....
Rob
P.S. That's why I always get into trouble when I try to give training advice! If only I had some sort of new book to follow..... |
|
Home of:
CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick"
PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket"
CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"
|
|
Doc_E
N.E. WA state
Grand Master
Online Status:
Posts:1023
|
| 02/21/2007 8:11 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By APLA Secretary on 02/21/2007 3:22Doc, you are my favorite person in the whole world, but I don't have them sit just because ..
Julie
Julie,
That's why I said SIT -- STOP --WHOA (whatever the handler desires). I never have Casey sit either. When the bird flushes ---- he just stands there (Steady to Flush) and watches (for me to shoot and miss)![]() |
|
Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
|
staunch
Certified
Online Status:
Posts:74
|
|
mattkeenan
Salem, OR
Advanced
Online Status:
Posts:184
|
|
APLA Secretary
Advanced
Online Status:
Posts:201
|
| 02/24/2007 3:15 PM |
Alert
|
| Matt, I am sending an email. I will have the readers of this forum put to sleep if I keep going. Wish you were in Kentucky.... until you've seen Jay and QDad dance the dance-of-pointing-joy, you really haven't lived..... |
|
|
|
stuw
North Central Minnesota
Master
Online Status:
Posts:967
|
| 02/25/2007 7:27 AM |
Alert
|
Ok...now I'm getting confused...which is nothing new
I'm not sure why you would use the "here" comand....to me..and my dog..that means stop what ever you are doing and return to me...
My dog will stand still at the flush (steady to wing)......but...If a shotgun goes off...she's chasing (obviously not steady to shot)...
If the bird doesnt fall from the sky (which does happen) I give the "NO BIRD" command...or blow the recall whistle...which stops her in her tracks... she returns to the area but not all the way back to me....I then tell her to "hunt em up" and we're back hunting...
I dont want her returning all the way back to me...I just want her to stop her pursuit of a flying bird....and get her back hunting as soon as possible....and not flush other birds while doing it
|
|
APR Gull Dam Labs Sagebrush Dragon
??R Gull Dam Labs Lady Willow |
|
tigerliberty
Dundee Michigan
Advanced
Online Status:
Posts:104
|
| 02/25/2007 7:39 AM |
Alert
|
| When the dog is mature enough i go out into the field with a bag full of pigeons and walk and throw the birds to imitate the flush letting the dog chase all he wants. I do this until he stops chasing (30 to 70 birds) the dog realizes he can not catch birds, is birdy as heck, and is now ready to be trained for upland work. The best part about this step in training is pigeons are cheap, readily available, fly in circles causing the dog not to run 20 miles away, and if you have a coop, reusable. |
|
Association of the MM and member of
TEAM RUN-N-GUN,
2.5xGMPR HRCH HRKS DieselSmokin4U
1.5xGMPR HRCH TigerofCattailCorky
CPR Liberty and Justice for All- "Libby"
The Young Gun's
HRK's Liberators Outlaw Jesse James
HRK's CPR Rooster Smasher
|
|