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Liv2Hnt
Overland Park, KS

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01/22/2007 3:07 PM	Alert
I'm Working my 7 mo old pointing lab. Finished OB, FF and CC and working on whoa breaking. He has shown a nice point since very little. Any tips or suggestions other than whoa to help establish holding point. My pup has a tendency to hold point very well unless he is in very close proximity to the bird(especially pen birds that are placed). If he gets in close and is on point he may only hold for 10-15 seconds and then he assumes the predatory stance followed by the nose dive in after the bird. We did alot of the early bird exposure where he couldnt catch them, but it still isnt stopping him from the dive. I can whoa him on the ground with the suitcase handle or on the board and hell stay until released. I just have not got to release birds in front of him while he is on the board. Any thoughts? Should I keep him off birds until I finish the whoa process?

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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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01/22/2007 3:28 PM	Alert
I'd suggest to simply continue to shoot the birds he holds point for and letting the ones he breaks on fly away. After a few of these, he should catch on a little. It helps if he has a strong desire to retrieve. I found that whoa had little meaning early on when we transitioned from the yard to the field. Good luck.

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01/22/2007 4:54 PM	Alert
Liv2holdpoint, I'd consider dechasing your dog in the next several months. Rob is right that whoa doesn't really apply here, but if you teach your dog not to chase birds, (this is not teaching not to look for birds) then there is no reason to break a nice point. I think Jay can help you with this one, can't you Jay? Julie

Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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01/22/2007 6:19 PM	Alert
You bet!! What a difference.....as long as he is pointing already! I'll write back when I have the time. Sorry. Jay

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Jay
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01/23/2007 7:00 PM	Alert
Sorry about that! We're counting inventory on two shifts right now, and I'm pretty much in charge of both. Anyways, to dechase you first need to get a couple of things set. (I hope that I get all of this right!) 1. Your dog is already pointing. 2. Your dog KNOWS come or here. 3. Your dog has been properly CC to come/here. 4. Whistle trained is even better. Next, get you some birds and put about three into a field. Don't plant them very far away, but far enough that you won't bump them. Keeping them closer helps to keep the lesson more defined without getting it clustered or forgotten. Take your dog out and let him/her point the bird until it flushes it up. Once flushed, the dog will run after the bird. When it does this use your whistle to call him/her back with the come command while giving stimulus with the e-collar. If your dog is properly CC'ed, then it is going to tie this in with the command rather than the bird, which is why the CC is so important. It just simply learns that running after the bird gets a call back with negative impact. Do this same thing on the next two birds, and repeat a couple more days/sessions. You'll still need to work on whoa with birds, but this really gets the idea to the dog that you say when it can release off of a point. It is still all natural, there is just more control to it now. The dog now knows that he is hunting for you, rather than just for him. I hope that I didn't screw this up. I'm still kind of rushed. Jay

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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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01/23/2007 8:15 PM	Alert
I go about it in more of a traditional pointer way. If you dog is pointing birds already you can use the flank rope with a helper to accomplish the same thing. By allowing the dog to point and then using the flank rope to teach them to stand. Once a dog learns that the proper thing is to allow you to flush the birds usually they hold point until you get there. Dechasing will help as well, though i am not sure that it fully takes away the urge to dive in. Where as training a dog to hold the point until you flush the bird should if done correctly. I have found that later work with steadying a dog to flush and shot also increases the time they will spend on point. Julie hopefully you understand that I am not discrediting what you are saying, just adding another perspective. I train a lot of pointers, and have found that a lot of the same work can be used with labs around birds.

Jay
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01/24/2007 9:56 AM	Alert
I'm sorry that I didn't have more time to explain oak, but you are right. Learning to properly whoa on birds is needed, and the de-chasing is not going to solve the jumping in section like you mention. However, de-chasing, paired with properly whoaing will produce the best results as I was taught. Julie instructed me on both, and it has proven to me to work. I gotta go, I'll talk more later. Jay

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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/24/2007 10:24 AM	Alert
GCL Tip of the Month quote "Once your dog quits chasing birds, you can quit calling them to you, they’ll just stand and watch the bird fly away." What Jay is alluding to is a single step (not much time spent on it) in the sequence which produces a dog with "healthier" bird interactions. Sidestepping this approach to dechasing is a missed opportunity to make the transition more seamless. Dechasing is not intended to steady the dog (in itself), and it won't keep the dog from jumping a bird (in itself). What it will do is plant a seed in the dog's mind that 1) the bird going up is a mutual thing (you and the dog are involved) and 2) not moving makes sense. Once the dog decides on it own (kind of) to not move even when the bird flys.....that is a huge step. Therefore, the dog is going to be more responsive to the next steps in the steadying process. Why wouldn't anyone take advantage of that?

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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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01/24/2007 11:20 AM	Alert
Back in the day...we trained for and called dechase, stop to flush. Same desired results, the dog does not chase birds and stops when they flush. It does help in breaking to wing and shot as well. The dog needed to be whoa trained. You go out in a field with a sack of pigeons, anywhere from 3-5 birds works well. Turn the dog loose and when appropriate toss a pigeon in the air. Give the “whoa” command and if the dog does not stop, nic or burn as needed to stop the dog in their tracks. Some dogs are finished in one outing others may take longer but it works well. Just another way to achieve the same results, not necessarily any better, just the way I was taught.

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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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01/24/2007 12:52 PM	Alert
Kwick, you da man. I looked for that "tip of the month", but couldn't find it. It was written much better than I could ever explain. I don't know if I'm special, but after doing de-chasing, Allie was always steady to flush as trout has mentioned. I've watched old videos on bird dog training with e-collars, and they did dechase as well. They however did not use a come command, and burned as the dog was chasing. I never like this idea, because I thought that it tied the bird in with the correction, even though they showed that it worked very well. After Julie explained to me about the use of the come command, it made perfect sense to me, and it worked like a charm. I couldn't believe the difference. You still have to train whoa..... Jay

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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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01/24/2007 1:05 PM	Alert
They didn't have video when I learned Jay. ...unless you count 8mm movie cameras

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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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01/24/2007 1:52 PM	Alert
You should de-chase your dogs, though in my opinion it does very little to enhance the time spent pointing game. But it does make the transition into other steadying drills much easier. Are you arguing that point with me? If so there is no need, I fully understand what de-chasing (steadying to flush) a dog does. I do a lot of correction around birds. With some dogs that I know can handle and need it, I will burn a dog around birds. There are a lot of ways to get a dog to understand that movement after point is un acceptable, the handler needs to decide what is right for them and for their dog. if they don't feel comfortable about it, send the dog to a trainer.

Jay
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01/24/2007 4:22 PM	Alert
Trout, I was simply stating..... But, if you want to show how old you are, then go right ahead. Oak, I'm not arguing anything with you, or at least I didn't think that I was. In my exposure of one dog, the dechase did enhance the time spent pointing game, but it still wasn't perfect. I also did not want to put any pressure on her that could be tied directly to birds. That's just my preferrence. I did a lot of whoa work, and de-chase. Both put together helped me a lot. That's all that I'm saying. Jay

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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/24/2007 5:07 PM	Alert
Well Jay, I quickly learned to save each "Tip of the Month". Therefore, I was able to go back and find the key idea (although it is out of context). Oakcreek, no I wasn't arguing......just trying to clarify the point Jay brought up with reference to GunClub's approach. One thing I learned in reading all the pointer forums is there are many different ways to accomplish the same thing. I understood your take on de-chasing and the context. The basic goals of having a pointer do it correctly are the same. However, some consideration has to be given to prior training methods with respect to how a dog will react. For instance, there is a huge difference between a pointing Lab vs. a pointer in the depth of collar conditioning. This is what the retriever trained Lab brings to the "pointing table". He has been collar conditioned to "turn off pressure" and responds well to "indirect pressure". The dog easily reacts to "here" and the handler without creating any negative bird interactions. The "collar/here" approach is a better fit for pointing Labs because of all the retriever OB/skill applications and enhanced by a solid understanding of indirect pressure. At least that's my rationale.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

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01/25/2007 5:57 AM	Alert
I don't see the argument here, of course I never do. I think folks ought to do what seems best to them so I am not engaging. I sincerely appreciate the takes on the concept from JB and Jay, both have undertaken the effort with a more global approach to training their retrievers, but having done it on only a dog or two, they don't have the depth of experience to have the conviction I have. If ropes worked well for me, I'd use them. If you put a check cord or any instrument of training on my dog that must be dragged or carried, they know they are being set up. And they will do whatever they are supposed to, including not go in on any bird. However, that is not the thought I personally want on a dog. The very intense, single purposed thought of a well bred pointer is just that. The retriever does not possess the same way of responding, or at least the ones I know haven't. When a dog goes on point, it should be with full concentration. When a dog has been passively conditioned through whoa training with live birds and the art of not pursuing moving birds, they don't consider moving in or getting closer. I have had infinitely more repeatable success with that than any mechanical intervention. Passive training isn't for many, until they have witnessed some of the results. Dechasing doesn't require such proximity, which is a far more natural thing as well. Maybe I'm just really lazy, but it's easier and dog and trainer in my experience... Julie

oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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01/25/2007 2:37 PM	Alert
Julie, I understand where you are coming from. I just don't use the collar very much at all until a dog has been through at least 1 bird season, and even at that I do a lot more hands on training then collar work regardless of age. Therefore even when breaking to flush I use a check cord. We like to let a dog go on point naturally then attach a flank rope. Steadying to flush does do a lot for extending the time on point, and that is what I do with a flank rope. It's all different training methods, both will work in the end. Though I would say that my dogs would on average be a lot less collar smart then others doing a collar method.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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01/25/2007 6:25 PM	Alert
oakcreek, IMO, Collar Wise is Collar wise --- I don't think it comes in degrees of Coller Wiseness. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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01/25/2007 6:37 PM	Alert
Doc I agree, I meant that lets say 1 out of 20 of my dogs may become collar wise, usually none of them are. Which is why I can go hunting with out collars and not have to worry. Where as most people that train strictly with collars, their dogs are 100% collar smart. Saw a GSP a couple of months ago that was steady to wing shot and fall. She would whoa anywhere at anytime. He took the collar off, the dog ran over birds, wouldn't whoa, didn't back, and ate the birds.

Jakebrake

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01/25/2007 7:41 PM	Alert
I would be leary of using a collar on a young dog when birds are present. Lots of down side, not much upside. Unless you are a pro I think its uses should be severly limited. I know its probably verboten but I must ask, as your handle is Liv2hunt. What kind of hunting do you primarily do? is it on wild birds or released birds? is it heavy cover or sparse cover in big terrain? In heavy cover on running birds in a place like South Dakota a Pointing lab is at a disadvantage in my experience, as are most pointing dogs when hunting heavy cover.

Doc_E
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01/25/2007 8:53 PM	Alert
Jakebrake, What are the disadvantages with dogs that point? .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

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Forums > American Pointing Labrador Association > Training > Holding Point