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Pointing Lab Forums |
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| Please Register to post to the American Pointing Labrador Association Forums |
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| Author |
Messages |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
Master
Online Status:
Posts:622
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| 09/15/2006 9:22 AM |
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Well, we did some training last night on some cheating marks where Allie was asked to cut into the water a thin line out to a mark. I was really wanting to work on the actual cheating water entry part more than the line, and would rather of done this leason in a different way, but I don't have the water to do it. Anyways, the water was so that the first five feet of bank was easy running water, the next two was mid swim and run (tough pushing), and it was pure swim after that, with the mark thrown about ten feet off the bank. Anyways, the first mark was perfect, and she knows to go directly into the water and stay there, but she found the levels. After that she started cheating the line (not the water) by a little bit each time until she was about three feet off (right at the edge of the running depth) the line. Beginner that I am, I knew that this wasn't right, but couldn't figure out when to give a correction since it was so small of a cheat that when I finally figured that she was in fact cheating she was already past a clear cut mistake point. 20/20 I guess that I should have just started handling from the get go, but almost wonder whether or not that small of a cheat is okay for an HT/hunting dog. What do you guys think? How do I fix it? Should I go back and re-do it so that it doesn't get worse?
It was fun to finally get out and do some training again. I sure did miss it.
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
Master
Online Status:
Posts:679
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| 09/15/2006 11:50 AM |
Alert
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| Are you repeating the same mark? |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
Master
Online Status:
Posts:622
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| 09/15/2006 12:19 PM |
Alert
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Yes. I was working on entry cheating and my half soaked mind wasn't thinking too much about the rest of the retrieve. I started at the bank, and worked my way back, until I was stopped by some stairs (which wasn't really as far as I needed). She never did cheat the entry.
Allie's a smart girl, she just has a dumb trainer.
Man, it's too nice of a day here. All I can think about is getting back out...
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
Master
Online Status:
Posts:679
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| 09/18/2006 10:51 AM |
Alert
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Jay, the best way to decheat a dog is to use water lining drills. Of couse, this technique depends on what you have done leading up to them. Assuming that some sort of "no/no" drill was taught, swim-by is completed and the dog is use to being handled.........running cheaty sight blinds across corners and parallel to banks gets the idea across more quickly. Then when you throw the cheaty marks, keeping them on line is more easily "explained".
However, this will mean little if you can't find the water to do them in. It does not have to be a very big pond. Here's a picture of the tune-up lining drills on a pond that I was fortunate enough to get permission to use. The bumpers are sight blind piles to start out with. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri
Master
Online Status:
Posts:772
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| 09/18/2006 2:21 PM |
Alert
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Jim, you are the man once again. I was just getting ready to post a thread on cheating drills. Thanks for you inputs. I will be working on this tonight.
Joe
Can you explain how you accomplish the follwing : On your picture the two pile locations in the top left corner of the picture that require the initial cast in and then down the shore and then up the bank to the pile. Where on the pond is that run from and do you have a pile you are lining them up on across the pond out of the picture or are they just cast in that direction, stopped, given a right over to parallel the shorre and then a right angle back to the pile?
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
Master
Online Status:
Posts:622
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| 09/18/2006 2:41 PM |
Alert
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Yeah, I decided that I had better tighten up my standards before they get worse, so I went out and did this over the weekend. She actually did really well since she was sent only one time to each pile, not "learning" where it was easier to run/swim. I think that I'm going to try it with repeat piles, and do more handling to get her straightened out if she cheats. I'll let you know how it goes, so that I can get more advice. 
Thanks
Jay |
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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
Master
Online Status:
Posts:679
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| 09/18/2006 4:04 PM |
Alert
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Joe, the dog is expected to take a straight line to the pile. The down the bank arrows represent that line. When you start this work, the lines can be farther from the sides or less cheaty. Once they get the idea, you can up the ante and challenge them with lines closer to the shore. The pond has two nice square corners, a couple round sides and two straight sides (for parallel work).
Here is a better picture of one pile run earlier this spring. Daisy is returning with a bumper. 
This pond could not be more perfect. The water is swimming 2 yards off the shore all the way around with shore grass right to the edge. In addition to the degree of "cheatiness", I will eventually extend the distance to the water from the line (longer entries). When they cheat, I will allow them to get up on land, whistle sit them, give a calm, quiet "no" and cast "over" into the water...then "back" to the pile. Swim-by provides this skill.
I do not use the e-collar....only attrition. If they don't stop on the whistle this suggests some shortcomings in previous preparation for the drill. Lots of verbal praise when they "do good".....works well. Remember this is another "up close" teaching drill. Challenge when the concept begins to sink in.
Today Daisy was working on this drill as a corallary to wagon wheel lining on land. There were four bumpers placed around the pond in "cheaty" positions. She was lined up (at heel), given the "look/lock dead bird/good hand down/back" routine on a specific bumper. The standard is straight to the bumper and back. That bumper was then placed in a slightly different spot as we walked to the next "run".
Using right and left side heels......repetition deepens the concepts of lining up correctly, establishing a routine and going as sent plus the dog develops an understanding of your expectations on cheaty lines.
The other benefit in this routine is that it is the same for running cold blinds.
Therefore, all that is needed to complete transition is to create in the dog a
driven anticipation of "getting something out there" that is not visible.
You can then apply this skill more readily to cheating marks because the routine for correcting to the proper line is understood. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
----------------------------------
"Excellence is Expected" |
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bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri
Master
Online Status:
Posts:772
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| 09/18/2006 5:36 PM |
Alert
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I get it now, in the first picture it looked like the line was bent and you were running from the corner. Could just be my eyes. I am over 40 now. : )
Joe
I will give you 100 bucks if you could move that pond down here close to where I live. 
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