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mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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08/14/2006 8:32 AM	Alert
My 5-month old is doing great with OB, and will hold a whoa for at least a few minutes, even when I'm out of sight, kicking the grass all around her, etc. However, when I first give her the "whoa" command, she almost always sits down. I sharply pick her butt up and give her the whoa command again - she will remain standing still until I release her. Besides this repetition, are there any suggestions on how to get her to stop in the standing possition, instead of sitting? Thanks, Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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08/14/2006 9:47 AM	Alert
Why are you teaching and commanding "whoa" with a five month old pup?

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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08/14/2006 12:46 PM	Alert
I have been "whoa"ing her since very early on, as outlined in Julie's book. early on, it was just a very simple excercize where I would hold her belly up with the leash, calmly tell her "whoa", and stroke down her back. Well, she got the point very quickly - so I began to take the leash away. She fully understands that whoa means "don't move". Once I get her standing, she won't even move her feet until I release her or call her. I do all of my whoa-training separate from other OB, and wayyy seperate from retrieving work. I figured that if she is taking to the command, why not work with her on it? Is that not a good idea? It wasn't until lately that I've put any pressure on her to whoa - since I figured that she is ready for the next phase of actually learning to stop on the command, while she is walking. Until now, it has been a very low-pressure, fun excercize. What level of whoa-training would you recommend for a pup in this situation? Thanks, Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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08/14/2006 3:39 PM	Alert
First of all a pup that sits almost always on the command is saying "This formal whoa thing is too much pressure, and sitting makes me feel better." This "read" indicates you may be pushing too much for control. Five months is early. I did a quick review of Julie's "Training the Pointing Retriever" (which deals with the first six months) and no where did I see "whoa".................not once.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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08/15/2006 10:51 AM	Alert
yeah, I haven't read her new book - perhaps she changed her methodology. In the hardcopy (The Pointing Lab, Getting the Most from You and Your Dog), it clearly outlines a plan for starting "whoa" at a young age (within the first 3-4 months, anyway). However, the conotation certainly seemed to be to make sure that "whoa" is a very easy, calming, enjoyable thing for the pup. When she moved onto the "advanced" whoa section of the book (whoa with birds, etc.) , it didn't give an idea of how old the pup should be - but rather "when the pup knows to stay still on the whoa command" (or something like that). And she certainly does that, I can even pull on her w/out her moving. I got to that point w/out any pressure, only with very calm, possitive reinforcement. I guess my question is: how do I know when she is ready to learn how to stop walking on the "whoa" command and remain standing - and what is the best technique to keep her from sitting down/correct her for sitting??

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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08/15/2006 10:54 AM	Alert
Let her get older so she has more focus first...

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

lpointer
Kansas City

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08/15/2006 8:48 PM	Alert
I am running into the same problem. My dog is 1 year old this month. He does a great job whoa on the table...I stroke him...encourage him....praise him... and he will stand there all day long if I let him. Put him on the ground and Whoa him and he sits. I can then stand him up give the command again and he will stand without any problems. what I am going to do is use the check cord and Whoa him at my side so I can control him from sitting down. This is not a high pressure drill..just command, stroke, praise, and release.

Jere

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08/16/2006 12:08 AM	Alert
Though I never use the verbal command "whoa" I do teach a pointing Lab. to stand on cue. This seems to take much less time than training a full blown, well proofed verbal whoa which I have no use for. And it serves all purposes for developing pointing dog manners on game. The cue begins as a slight, quick, vibrating tugging with the check cord and pinch collar and transitions, much later, to ecollar stim. at the lowest level the dog acknowleges. When I started working with my three dogs, several years ago, they each sometimes sat after stopping on cue. (Possibly this was connected to the way "sit" had been taught early on - pulling upward on the checkcord to force a sit.) The "cure" was to tap the sitting dog on the stifle joint with my boot toe - gently please. The dog stands, praise, and repeat cue to stand. It only took a few times and the dogs stood on cue without sitting. Bird dog folks don't train "sit" because this results; but I do wonder whether it could be avoided by using a different technique to train "sit." Jere

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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08/16/2006 12:10 PM	Alert
(Possibly this was connected to the way "sit" had been taught early on - pulling upward on the checkcord to force a sit.) Jere. I thing that is the key to this whole "whoa/sit" isssue with pointing Labs. First of all (from my perspective) my pointing Labs are retrievers and they will be taught to sit........early. Almost all retriever training programs are based on a solid sit standard. Secondly, IF you are going to use "whoa" somewhere in the dog's training you have to "rise above" the singular dogma of retriever vs. pointer training. There's not a lot of information out there on how, when and why. My approach was based on the fact that each are a command and must be taught. Sit ends up being a default action by a dog to relieve pressure. The problem is to make the "whoa" command different and equal. So let's side step that issue for a second and look at another training technique that has been proven successful......yet not exactly related to the topic. A barking dog is a nuisance. If you teach the dog to bark on command.......in theory......."no bark" will make more sense. I tested this "yes/no" training concept with a "squeeky" toy and taught Taffey to either "sqeek" a toy on command or cease doing it. It was easy. So the idea of integrating "sit or "whoa" into the same drill was conceived. Teaching "sit" was done first and when the time seemed right "whoa" was taught more as not sitting. On remote sits, Taffey returned and would "sit" or "whoa" on command (alternating and mixing the order). Sit was never a default reaction to whoa because they became equal and opposite (one or the other). One thing that I have notice with this approach is that if retriever work is the dominant training and maintenance is forgotten. The default aspect of sit will crop up. However, the tools are in place to deal with it. She knows the difference. Balance is important in all aspects of training. There is an interesting validation to this approach (which is not a good idea to try with a young dog). I tested it this morning after our training lessons were over. We have not mentioned the word "whoa" in a training session since last hunting season. First a Taffey was put on a remote sit at about 50 yards and released with a "here". She was give a "whoa" command. She stopped and stood still. However, as she got closer to me, the sits were slower and the whoas seemed headed for a sit. I calmly reminded her with a quiet "no" when she did either incorrectly. It was the normal reaction toward zero maintenance and the pressure (perceived from me) to push her to a sit because that's all she's been doing this summer..........sit. Now it gets interesting. I threw a Dokken as far as possible with her at heel, when released she flew toward the mark. Half-way there.......I commanded "whoa'' and she landed in a frozen position where if one were to take a picture it would "looK" like a fantastic point. She was locked on the position of the mark and was quivering with excitement. There was no hint of defaulting to a sit. The reason for no hint of defaulting was because there was no perceived pressure from me. I was not in the picture except for the eventual release which snapped her out of the trance. OK, so what does all this mean? First of all, teaching the dog the difference is important. Labs are certainly smart enough to learn if you teach it. Secondly, if a dog is sitting on "whoa" you are sending the wrong message. The dog is perceiving pressure from you, and effective teaching is not generally pressure driven. So I teach my dogs that "whoa" does not mean "sit", and they understand.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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08/16/2006 12:41 PM	Alert
Kwik, Thanks a lot for you detailed answer! The theory behind it makes great sense to me. But I still have 1 question on the technique: How do you teach her the difference between sit and "anti-sit" (whoa) without using any pressure? Should I wait until the dog is relaxed and standing, give the whoa command, praise/stroke her, then make her sit and praise her again? If she does sit upon whoa, how do I correct her without using force? Or..... Should I only "command" whoa while I have a leash under her belly - so that I don't have to correct anything? Then, give the sit command and praise her for that. I still don't know how I would get her to switch from sitting to "whoa" without using pressure (i.e. pulling up on the leash under her belly) - since I don't want to give a command that I can't enforce. Or is pulling up on the leash not really considered "pressure"? I know, lots of questions. Thanks for your patience!

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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08/16/2006 2:40 PM	Alert
I understand the "lots of questions" issue and believe me when I first started with Taffey directions and focus were always a problem. However, sanity prevailed and I found out thinking about "everything" was very inefficient. I had to go back to my old computer to find out when Taffey was first introduced to "whoa". The best I can figure was some time after she had her HR (Seasoned title in HRC). So that would make her over 14 months old. We were "behind" in bird imprinting at seven months versus the recommended four months. I must have dealt with a million (maybe a few less) ideas on "whoa" and every person was sure they were right. But I tell you what.......a dog on an intense point isn't doing it because of the word "whoa". What I'm trying to say is worrying about the relationship between "sit" and "whoa" with a five month old pup is looking more like a trainer's agenda. What your pup needs right now........is to be a pup. As for your first question..... How do you teach her the difference between sit and "anti-sit" (whoa) without using any pressure? ......your pup is not old enough to be worrying about that........and I don't want to give a command that I can't enforce ......so you go back to letting her be a pup. She is not ready for "enforcing", and just barely ready to learn. There are other more important things to learn at that age. A five month old pup has a very short attention span, but they do know when it's not fun. My present pup out of Taffey is about 13 months old. She's never heard the word "whoa", but she points. She will be working on it in the yard this fall. You can never go back. Relax.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

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08/16/2006 4:49 PM	Alert
Try this. Walk along on a leash with her and when you give the 'whoa' cue, gently touch her on the flank very near her belly. This reinforces the upward response to stopping. I do this very quietly and very gently so they come to anticipate this as well, and never think about sitting. As Jere and others pointed out, jerking on chains induces a sit in a schooled retriever, so you need an entirely different kind of thinking on the dog. And if you guys dechase these dogs, whoa kind of becomes a moot point, so to speak! Julie

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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08/16/2006 6:37 PM	Alert
Great - thanks a lot you guys! I really appreciate you taking all that time to help some kid hundreds of miles away that you've never met before. Hopefully someday I can return the favor. There's nothing I enjoy more than watching my pup get super-excited when its time to work. She loves OB even more than our daily mountain treks, and almost as much as retrieving - thanks for helping me find that balance in training progress that doesn't kill her desire to work.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

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