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Subject: Converting from Yard to Field

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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/04/2006 6:56 PM	Alert
I have been doing a lot of "pile work" this summer with my dog. The double T, wagon wheels, etc. My dog is really doing fantastic. I have set up the double T on a football field and he is driving to the back pile with gusto (over 100 yards). He stops on the whistle and will cast in either direction. However...whenever I try to run a blind under field conditions, i.e. hiding a dokken or bird in cover and sending him back, he sometimes reverts to hunting mode and blows off my casts. I imediately call him back and resend him and I can get him to eventually follow my directions, but they are never as nice and crisp as when we do our yard routines. He runs back, but starts to stray off line and start hunting again so I will sit him and recast him. Does anyone have any advice on smoothing the transition from yard to field with regards to running blinds?

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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08/04/2006 7:00 PM	Alert
Shorten up the distances and if he blows you off, it should be 'Tweet - NICK - Tweet'. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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08/04/2006 8:48 PM	Alert
The process of going from yard work to finally running cold blinds is called transition. There are steps to take after T work which prove to make the process more seamless. There are several lining drills that should be sequenced plus pattern blinds and bird boy blinds. Somewhere in there should be force to water and swim-by. When these are completed you can get a bit more serious about cold blinds and decheating. The mechanics of lining, going as sent and trusting your direction will be more deeply ingrained. Doc's favorite question usually is what program are you following? Specifically, did you do anything else between T work and cold blinds?

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

LuckyNash
Brigham, Utah

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08/05/2006 2:12 AM	Alert
If the dog is sent and strays off line and starts to hunt, wouldn't that be considered a form of a "pop"? IF so, wouldn't the proper correction be a "Back" nick "Back" at the instant the dog starts to slow down and think about turning instead of a "Sit" nick "Sit" considering force to pile is complete? If he is off line and the momentum is good, then it would be a "tweet" recast. Or a "Tweet"(dog blows him off) "Tweet-nick-Tweet" for a whistle refusal. Correct me if I'm wrong because I have wondered about this myself.. Popping and or confusion can be avoided by doing what Doc and Kwick have said, shorter distance, pattern and bb blinds. Also short or less cover.

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/05/2006 5:34 AM	Alert
I have followed Julie and Pauls book for almost all of my work and I bought a bunch of Mike Lardy tapes for his yard drills. The problem is that a lot of this stuff requires helpers that I do not have so I have made certain compromises here and there. I have done the corrections that were mentioned and he responds to them, but I guess the main concern is that he doesn't seem to learn from them like I would hope. With a whistle, nick, whistle, he will sit and face me, but half the time when I recast, he will go where I want and the other times, he might just continue his hunt. I have done a lot of short (easy) back blinds in the field and he does very well with those (10 to 20 yards, straight back, hidden in cover). The problems usually appear when I try to set up a more complicated blind (something like a 30 yard back and with an over). He sometimes never makes it back 30 yards before "popping" or just plain starting to hunt. Eventually he always finds the bird (usually by me recasting him multiple times). I really try to avoid him ever finding the bird by hunting. I always recast him so he knows I sent him there. My underlying reason for this question is that I am trying to prepare him for his advanced test in September and I know he will be running a blind during the test. All of his other work is pretty solid (now can he just put it all together on the same day!). To be honest, I am a little worried about his line steadiness, but he is young and eager and we are working on that as well. Can anyone tell me how far out the blind bird is usually placed for an advanced test?

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/05/2006 5:44 AM	Alert
Jim, After writing an entire page, I realized I didn't answer your specific questions. I bought and watched the Mike Lardy Total Retriever Series of tapes. I found very early that it was difficult to keep going back to the tapes and remember the specifics of each drill, so I picked certain drills that I could do without help and focused on them. Specifically a lot of the forcing to pile work, wagon wheel, t's and double t's. Water is not readily available to me for training so my water work with him is not as strong as I would like when it comes to complicated water drills. He is doing great at water doubles and that is about where I have left it for now. I will admit that it has been awhile since I last watched the Lardy videos. I am sure that is the root of my problems (that I have strayed from the program. After typing all of this out, I suppose it appears I am looking for a quick fix. If there is one, I am all ears, but if your advice is to go back and review the program I see now that my problem probably starts there.

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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08/05/2006 6:23 AM	Alert
"Can anyone tell me how far out the blind bird is usually placed for an advanced test?" 100 yards (approximately). First of all, I get the idea that your training is driven by a deadline to pass a test. This puts pressure on both of you. Secondly, the fact that you are planting "lots of" cold blinds in cover at 10-30 yards and having issues indicates a problem with the training program (not the dog). If the dog is hunting at these distances (and apparantly getting away with it)......stop and analyze the rationale of this approach. It is not fair to train a dog taking shortcuts. Shortcuts only work when you know where you are going and you don't care about the scenery. Simply stated......getting from A to Z cannot be accomplished by skipping 24 letters. My suggestion is to do it right and let the dog's performance in training dictate when you enter a test......not the calendar. Now, to address the sequence (kind of). After T work the dogs should be running some three legged pattern blinds. Those would be at 90 degrees, at least 100 yards and in zero cover. When he can run those with style, throw a mark in the set-up, have him pick it up and then run the pattern. This is only one of many things that you will need to do and one post couldn't possibly describe the whole process. The word "Chapters" comes to mind. I train alone "A LOT" and transition does not require helpers. However, you need to do pattern blinds (that's plural and at least 200 yards), walking baseball, Zig-Zag, two tiered wagon wheels, diversion drills and BB blinds while graduating to orange bumpers and staying in ZERO cover. During this time you need to maintain your marking balance, do force to water, water T, swim-by and decheat the dog. Otherwise the advanced skills needed are being replaced with "a wing and a pray mentality" test approach. Once you have completed this phase, cover and other factors are introduced. Then you are ready to start simple cold blinds. Also, the above summarized analysis fails to deal with the fact that you may be running a pointing Lab test which requires upland training, too. Deadlines have a way of creating unrealistic goals. The pictures below demonstrate training set-ups that my 12 month old PL was doing after swim-by and decheating during transition. The first is a diversion drill modification of the double T field using stickmen, four marks and a jump plus the 125 yard pile. The second is a diversion drill involving a mark thrown into water and a 100 yard pattern blind off to the right. There are two more pattern blinds in that set-up. The third is the 184 yard middle blind of a three legged pattern blind (in another area with a 300 yard blind to the left and a 164 "yarder" to the right). These training set-ups are in preparation for eventually running cold blinds in cover. This all may seem like too enormous of a task, but taken one step at a time with no deadlines.........the scenery is enjoyable.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

stuw
North Central Minnesota

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08/05/2006 10:56 AM	Alert
from the APLA test rules.... BLIND LAND RETRIEVE The Blind Land Retrieve must occur before the dog is worked in the Upland Field. Either a dead duck or a pheasant will be used for the blind. The judges will identify the location where the bird is located. The distance of the land blind will be about 40 to 50 yards from point of origin to the marked location of the bird. Cover should be light to medium (as available). A shot will be fired from the general location of the blind sometime before the dog is sent to the blind.

APR Gull Dam Labs Sagebrush Dragon ??R Gull Dam Labs Lady Willow

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/05/2006 3:11 PM	Alert
Jim, I appreciate your detailed response. Your assessment that my training is being driven by a timeline is correct. Sometimes it is nice to be reminded of my perspective and take a realistic step back. My dog may not be ready to be tested...however, my main goal with this dog is for hunting and I had so much fun last spring in his Certified test, I feel there is little harm in trying this fall. If he fails he fails and we try again. At least I can use it as a learning experience and get a chance to see where his shortcomings may be. I also feel the adreneline of a test day is good for him to experience. As I stated before, I feel that all of the other elements that he will be tested for are pretty solid. Upland is his strong suit as that is mainly the only type of hunting that I do. His land and water doubles are strong. So my main concern with the approaching test is the blind. Thanks for the tips on the steps necessary to develop the cold blinds. I will try to incorporate them into his training over the next few weeks. Maybe with a little luck, we can progress back to the cold blinds in time...or not. Anyway, hunting season is just around the corner and we can then shift our focus back to what I really enjoy...finding, pointing and shooting the heck out of birds!!! Thanks again for your help. Rob

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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08/05/2006 5:42 PM	Alert
Stu's right. The Advanced blind is 40-50 yards and Master is 100 yards.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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08/05/2006 6:20 PM	Alert
Posted By LuckyNash on 08/05/2006 2:12 AM 1. If the dog is sent and strays off line and starts to hunt, wouldn't that be considered a form of a "pop"? 2. IF so, wouldn't the proper correction be a "Back" nick "Back" at the instant the dog starts to slow down and think about turning instead of a "Sit" nick "Sit" considering force to pile is complete? 3. If he is off line and the momentum is good, then it would be a "tweet" recast. Or a "Tweet"(dog blows him off) "Tweet-nick-Tweet" for a whistle refusal. Correct me if I'm wrong because I have wondered about this myself.. Popping and or confusion can be avoided by doing what Doc and Kwick have said, shorter distance, pattern and bb blinds. Also short or less cover. 1. Maybe - maye not - would have to witness the event. 2. Do you want the dog to continue on the wrong line (or do I misunderstand?) 3. Correct. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

LuckyNash
Brigham, Utah

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08/05/2006 9:59 PM	Alert
2. Do you want the dog to continue on the wrong line (or do I misunderstand?) I'll try to rephrase the question. The dog is sent and continuing on the correct line but is slow, possibly a little confused, starts to head swing or bug but still heading down the correct line. You can read the dog, before he goes off line and starts to hunt. 1.Would the correct thing to do be a back nick back to speed him up? 2. Or a Tweet recast nick as the dog is turning? Like you do in the FTP drill to get more momentum. I'm wondering if having the dog sit when it is clearly confused, but still moving down the line, adds to the problem or encourages popping. Realizing popping could be avoided in the first place.

Hoytman

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08/28/2006 9:16 AM	Alert
Rob G said: "My dog may not be ready to be tested...however, my main goal with this dog is for hunting and I had so much fun last spring in his Certified test, I feel there is little harm in trying this fall. If he fails he fails and we try again. At least I can use it as a learning experience and get a chance to see where his shortcomings may be." If you're pretty sure your dog isn't ready to be tested then why would YOU give him the opportunity to do so? If he fails, YOU failed him by not prepairing him for the task, and you go back to square one which would be to follow the advise that Kwicklabs gave you. Why would you want that? Finish the training prescribed above or else you'll only see where your shortcomings were. It isn't the dogs fault. I understand your main goal is to hunt your dog and that you enjoyed yourself @ a CP test, these events are fun for all of us. All I'm saying is try to avoid creating your own headaches.

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/28/2006 4:30 PM	Alert
I didn't say that I was "pretty sure" my dog wasn't ready. I simply stated that he "may" not be, as I am sure that many dogs will not be (or else we would see close to a 100% pass rate). I have worked very hard with my dog this summer and as an amateur trainer, I feel very proud of our progress. I have never blamed my dog for any failure. I will be the first to admit that any shortcomings in my training are based on my lack of experience, not my dog's lack of ability. I have no doubt that my dog is capable of much more than I can ever achieve with him, but he will never know what he is missing (because he is a dog). You make it seem that I will go to this test, automatically fail, then go home and kick the @#!$ out of my dog for him failing. This is simply not the case. I have taken Kwicklabs response to heart and I have gone back and reviewed our progress. We are working daily on our blind drills and I am seeing improvement everyday. To date he is nailing 3 legged pattern blinds (150 yards on the A and C legs and 200 yards on the B leg) with marks thrown in and this weekend he nailed two cold blinds in heavy cover at 50+ yards (They were actually marks gone bad...misfires on the launcher..., but I turned them into blind drills and he nailed them both.) His double marks are solid (water and land) and I would put his upland skills up against any other dog. Even if we fail, there are valuable things that we can get by going through the process involved with the test. Additionally I am not sure what the bad thing is about finding out where "my shortcomings" are. How else are we supposed to learn. I didn't mean to spark any kind of debate with my earlier post, but I seem to have struck a nerve! As I said earlier, my dog may not be ready, but who knows....maybe he is!

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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08/28/2006 6:34 PM	Alert
" "Additionally I am not sure what the bad thing is about finding out where "my shortcomings" are. How else are we supposed to learn?" There is a certain point in training when it makes sense to find out exactly where you and the dog are at (especially when new at the process). A test willl give you some perspective, and it sounds like that is what you are looking for. Good luck and have fun.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Hoytman

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08/28/2006 7:18 PM	Alert
No nerve struck here. My mistake. I retract "pretty sure". To me, "MAY NOT be ready", implies even you had some doubt whether or not he's ready or you would have probably said; he's ready but if he fails...then it was only for fun. Anyway, I apologize if I came across the wrong way. I realize it has been some time since the original post and it sounds like you're moving along nicely. I agree with Jims last post as well. I just meant give yourself and the dog a chance by being sure that he is ready. Why else take a dog that isn't ready to pass a test? Agree? Sure, there's some value in the experience in handling a dog at a test, but if you've been training alot for that test, it shouldn't matter. For the record. I don't ever beat around the bush about things. If I was thinking you'd take your dog home and kick the crap out of it I would have said so, believe me. Nowhere in your post did you say anything that made me feel that way. I didn't mean for it to sound short, just to the point. So please, reread the last sentence in that post. Regardless of how it came across, I still feel it's sound advise. Only you know if your dog is ready. This is why I hate computers. No tone in the words and once you hit the send button it's gone forever. Again, sounds like things are going well for you. Keep up the good work! Bill

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/28/2006 8:28 PM	Alert
I agree about the computer thing. It is hard to determine the intended tone as well as convey your own. I typed the words he "may" not pass and should have phrased it better. Oh well... The fact remains that pass or fail I intend to make it a positive experience for myself and my dog. As I stated in my last post, my dog will never know that he failed (if he fails) so as far as he is concerned it is just another training day and having some fun! I intend to have us both as ready as possible for the test. Although my experience is limited...I can already probably predict that the part of the test that I am most worried about will be the part that goes smooth and something unexpected will surface! I don't like to come off as "over confident" so I sometimes phrase things passively. Inside I am a very competitive person, but I feel humbled by a lot of people on this forum and all that they have accomplished. Pass or fail, I can take with me some things to work on. I'm sure that even people that pass the first time can learn some things.

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/28/2006 8:52 PM	Alert
I just re-read my last post and I hate that I am coming off so negative. Of course I feel that we can pass. I wouldn't have signed up otherwise. We have worked very hard this summer and the payoff would be to get his CPR and APR in the same year. I was simply stuck with one aspect of his training and it turned out to be that I passed over a few training basics along the way. Kwicklab's advice allowed me to gain the perspective I needed to review my mistakes (thanks by the way). He is progressing nicely and I am looking forward to seeing how he stacks up. I watched a lot of the advanced dogs at the spring test and I think we will be just fine.

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

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