Pigeons won't flush! > Forum > American Pointing Lab Association

Forums

Forums > American Pointing Labrador Association > Training

Subject: Pigeons won't flush!

Please Register to post to the American Pointing Labrador Association Forums

Author

Messages

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:184

07/26/2006 5:50 PM	Alert
I am having trouble planting pigeons that stay long enough for my pup to get there, but flush before she eats them. I have planted the birds in different types of cover, from actually inside shrubs/woodpiles, to fairly light grass cover. My pup (Stella) is 4 months old, and I've only put out about 20 birds for her so far. Of these 20, only 3 or 4 birds stayed where they were, then flushed when she got there. I now avoid planting in any kind of bush or woodpile, since 0% of the birds planted there flushed. In the grass, I try to really put them way down against the earth, and cover them up good with the grass. Even when I do this, 40% of them fly away before the dog gets out of the car. the other 40% don't move, so i have to kick the bird up before Stella eats it (today she actually got its head in her mouth, which prompted this post). I don't dissy the birds. I really don't want to use a mechanical device because 1) I don't have money for remote-release, and 2) I want it to just seem like a natural walk through the field (I don't want to wait with my hand on the cord until she gets close enough). Any suggestions on what to do with my pigeons? are other kinds of birds better? Thanks! -Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri

Master
Master

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:772

07/26/2006 7:24 PM	Alert
I am not an expert but have planted plenty of pigeons in my day. I either dizzy them, or tuck their head under their wing or both, or you can lock their wings together by putting one over the top of the other. If you do this you will need some one else to lift one wing to free the pigeon to fly while you restrain your dog . Mechanical launcers have their purpose as well and can be bought or made for less than 75 dollars. The method you use depends on where you are in your training and whether or not you have help. It also helps if you lay them on their side and tuck them under a tuft of grass when the cover allows. A portable whoa post will allow you to flush pointed birds when you are working alone. (basically it is a metal stake you stomp in to the ground and wrap the check cord around) Lion Country Supply is a good source. You will probably get lots of opinions on dizzy birds, dont dizzy birds etc, launchers no launchers etc. There are lots of ways to accomplish your goal. No matter what you read or here your have to do what works for you and your dog. Be flexible and re asses your situation when things are not working out like you thought. Good luck with your trainng Joe

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

Grand Master

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:1023

07/26/2006 9:06 PM	Alert
Have you tried carding them? .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Jere

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:355

07/26/2006 10:06 PM	Alert
If you have enough space (say 3 - 5 acres minimum) and the cover isn't too dense - card them. If the space is limited, you can fly them on a long string (about 100' long) tied to the top of a 10' high pole - 1/2" pvc water pipe works well. Several of these setups spaced appropriately allow you to work different pigeons consecutively. There are drawbacks - long string gets tangled in grass, dog learns there's a bird at the end of the string, etc. Carding is THE best, IMHO. Jere

bwf7917
SAMS CREEK KENNELS

Certified

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:36

07/27/2006 9:03 AM	Alert
what is carding

WHERE THE "POINT" COUNTS

Jere

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:355

07/27/2006 4:56 PM	Alert
When birds are "carded," a square (or rectangle) of cardboard or other material (one person I know uses various sized disks of coroplast (sp?) - the sign material we see all over the place during political election campaigns) is attached to one leg to impede the bird's ability to fly. I use knitting yarn to attach the card to the bird's leg. A picture of the yarn and method of attacment is below: On the left is a 20" piece of yarn with the overhand knot to connect the two loose ends started but not pulled snug and the loop for the bird leg started. To the right the yarn loop is attached to a square of cardboard and the leg loop is ready to slip over the bird leg and draw tight. In one application the bird is released into a field and will fly 50 - 100 yards and alight somewhere. (The size of the cardboard is selected so this is all the bird will fly - usually 8" square will work. But this won't be enough for a very strong bird and will be too much for a weak bird. Beware very young pigeons with little breast muscle development. Sometimes a bird is hung off the card and allowed to try anf fly for a few seconds before being released to tire it somewhat.) Several, 3 - 5, birds will be released this way and the dog will be worked on those birds. (I quit for the day when I get the first performance better than the prior time out even if that is the first bird.) The cover in the field should be basically grass or other low stuff without much brushy stuff to tangle the bird - (applicable to pigeons.) If there is brush it can not be so high that the birds tend to try and land on branches - this seems to be about head high in my experience. Grass needs to be shortish and not too dense. Sometimes it helps to mow lanes or cut open areas in tall dense grass so the birds will land in the openings. One advantage of flying the bird thus is that there is no scent trail left by the handler which leads to the bird. Alternatively, if there is not enough room to fly the birds into the training field or there are prohibitive cover issues, the bird can be planted "hard" with the card attached. To plant a bird "hard" one holds the bird with hand covering the back and throws the bird to the ground with a downward thrust of the arm so it hits with a little "thump." How hard is hard enough may take a bit of experimentation and will differ between birds. This slightly stuns the bird or otherwise disorients it and, coupled with the presence of the string/card the bird tends to stay put until it is aware of danger in the form of the dog trying to capture it or is pushed into a flush by the handler or helper. As carded birds will not be able to fly "away" and will tire after a few or so repeated flushes, initially the dog should be under check cord control to prevent capture of birds. The method I use allows the dog to flush the bird before the check cord is used to stop the dog. This allows a natural point to develop and prevents blinking problems. But, I digress. Jere

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

Grand Master

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:1023

07/28/2006 7:15 AM	Alert
I haven't tried the "political sign" stuff -- probably would work very well. If you use cardboard, put a small piece of Duck Tape on the corner where the yarn goes through -- then it won't tear out after repeated use. And as Jere said, stay in an area without high bushes or trees. If a carded bird lands in a tree, the only way to get it out is to shoot it --- and then the yarn hangs up in the limbs. Ever see the skeleton of a pigeon, hanging from a tree, attatched to yarn, attatched to cardboard................I have. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:184

07/28/2006 2:56 PM	Alert
Hey, thanks a lot for the information everyone! I have never heard of "carding" before, and this seems like a great option for me. I will need to start utilizing some new training grounds, since the fields I have used so far - that aren't too thick/tall for my dog to work in - are pretty close to the tree line. I will try the "hard plant" if I can't find somewhere else to go, but I really like the idea of letting the bird settle down on its own. I also may consider saving up for some mechanical releases - which will bring me to the new thread I'm about to post. thanks for your help!

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

wdlfbio

Certified

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:57

07/28/2006 3:52 PM	Alert
Matt, I can walk you right through making remote launchers. They have their advantages, but plenty of problems too. Dawg training on a RA budget is a tough deal

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:184

07/28/2006 6:05 PM	Alert
Yeah, I told myself "no unecessary dog stuff" - the pup already eats better than I do. Its just a good thing there are plenty of deer in PA I think I'll have to take another student loan if I want to delve into the dog-technology world any further than the ecollar. cardboard and yarn and a little scouting for new training grounds seems a bit cheaper and less hassle. It's a good thing that land owners are pretty nice around here - spend a day in public lands and you'll know why they call it PennSYLVANIA.

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:184

07/31/2006 12:47 PM	Alert
A couple questions about carding: Should I allow the dog to flush each bird multiple times? How do I capture the bird at the end of the day? Sounds like a great technique, can't wait to try it! Thanks, Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

Grand Master

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:1023

07/31/2006 3:04 PM	Alert
Posted By mattkeenan on 07/31/2006 12:47 PM A couple questions about carding: Should I allow the dog to flush each bird multiple times? How do I capture the bird at the end of the day? Sounds like a great technique, can't wait to try it! Thanks, Matt Most pigeons are good for 3 to 5 flushes before they tire out. So, you'll only need one or two per training session. I'd suggest just using one bird your first time out -- so you get an idea as to what they do and how long they will last. Once you see the bird is loosing it's energy, you can either truly (or pretend) shoot the bird and let the dog make the retrieve as a reward for a job well done. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Jere

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:355

07/31/2006 6:22 PM	Alert
If a bird is having difficulty getting airborn or can only fly a rather short distance (it should appear to the dog to actually fly away) you're done with that bird for the day. I have used a 10' piece of 1/2" PVC water pipe with a small wire hook on one end to capture carded pigeons - try and hook the yarn between the bird and card. Have even snagged a few out of low trees. I have also crept up on them and pounced right after throwing a hat at the bird - the bird crouches in response to the flying hat making hand capture easier. Sometimes they can just be hand grabbed - though often they have to be flushed several times and worn down before success. The pointing dog folks I know who use this technique do not shoot a bunch of birds for the dog. They feel steady to shot and fall are easier to establish if the dog does not come to expect every bird to be shot and the shot to be followed by a retrieve. They will go so far as to kill a bird and have a helper retrieve the bird and bring it in to the dog. But, when the dog starts pointing, having been stopped from chasing after the flush until this happens, they do kill a bird for the dog and let it retrieve as a reward. Ditto if the dog makes a major improvement in manners. Remember, a little praise, a gentle stroke of the hand on the back or side of the chest after a good performance and quit for the day. One trainer I've worked with often has several owners, maybe helpers, all working dogs simultaneously on the various "manners on game" skills. The work goes on more or less as a parade with the dogs and their handlers all following more or less in single file behind the lead dog which is the one which has the bird contact. Each dog will be worked on standing (silent, cued by VERY suptle vibrating tug input from the checkcord), stop to wild flush (simulated usually by the sight of a flushed bird flying near), stop on gunshot, stop behind a stopped dog (backing), and release from stand (hand tap on shoulder or head and/or verbal "OK") as the opportunities arise. If the lead dog handles the bird well enough that the bird is shot, first it and then each other dog in rotation gets to retrieve that bird. Generally, when a dog does this well (a bird is killed) it is put up for the day - the session is over for that dog and the next dog in line has the next bird encounter. Jere

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:184

08/01/2006 11:52 AM	Alert
Great - thanks for the advice Jere! think I'll get her out super early in the AM to beat the heat! -Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

h4everything
Blanchard, OK

Certified

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:42

08/01/2006 7:43 PM	Alert
I use homing pigeons and I just dizzy them and put them down in some grass. If I wait 5-10 minutes the will flush if I or the dog gets close to them. Then they will fly back to the coup. I have found a man locally that just likes having them around to hear them "coo" at night. He lets me take the birds for training then I come and pick them up to use them again and again. I have a few of the "squeaker" birds the I am getting homed in on my coup so they will fly back to my house. Here in OK there is a few people that have the homing pigeons and they can be bought for anywhere between $3-$8. You can buy the pigeon door bobs and stuff from most of the gundog supply stores. you can email me @ jason.e.goss-1@ou.edu and I will send you a copy of my aviary plans for a pigeon coup. Homers are a lot cheaper to use that wild birds in the long run and they will reproduce at a pretty good rate as well. Jason

Please Register to post to the American Pointing Labrador Association Forums

Forums > American Pointing Labrador Association > Training > Pigeons won't flush!