Lab Guy
St. Paul, MN
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| 07/18/2006 5:57 AM |
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How long should I wait to training after feeding? I've been sticking to two hours, but can I shorten this up? The reason I am asking is that mornings before going to work works out the best for many reasons. I will usually wait till after training to feed but lately Scout's attention span/focus is just not there. If I was able to feed her and wait a few hours and then train things went much better. I am starting a new job in a few weeks and have to be out of the house much earlier than before and evenings are still too warm to do much, any advice would be apreciated.
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 07/18/2006 6:20 AM |
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I'd suggest you feed after training. When you feed before training, a large portion of the dog's blood supply is directed at the digestive system instead of the skeletal muscles.
Minimum of 1 hour (before or after training).
Food and water bowls at ground level.
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 07/18/2006 7:09 AM |
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| You can try giving her a couple of treats and see if that works-maybe her brain needs to have eaten but her body is ok, and that might satisfy her. |
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Jere
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| 07/18/2006 11:30 AM |
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I feed twice a day to minimize the mass of food ingested, though it seems the current best advice is once a day feeding. I generally defer training for at least two hours after feeding to try and minimize the risk of bloat. But I've read professional advice to wait 24 hours after feeding before strenuous exercise (upland hunting). When I am hunting (all winter from mid-August through mid-February) I take the two dogs for a short clean-out walk first thing in the morning, return to the truck, feed one and take the other hunting. I feed the dog that hunted as soon as we return. This is in deference to the advice to get an amount of easily dogested carbs into the dog within 30 minutes of exhastive exercise to replenish depleted muscle glucose stores. I don't want to carry the reccommended supplements and have found (as has a friend who hunts his wirehairs hard through the winter) that this practice appears to help the dogs maintain stamina over time.
I think you better solution is to train and then feed before leaving for work.
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Lab Guy
St. Paul, MN
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| 07/19/2006 9:05 AM |
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Thanks for the advice. That leads me to some other questions. Why wait 24 hours from feeding before strenous exercise? I thought the digestive process was 6 - 8 hours. Could this time be shortened by softening the food with water to help aid digestion? Would this also be the same for duck hunting? I read somewhere (mabe Knunutson's book) that it is good to give the dog food during the hunt to help keep the energy levels up. Last question is why feed the dog at ground level? She is currently fed that way so I am good to go there.
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Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!
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| 07/19/2006 10:12 AM |
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| I always feed mine at the very end of the night, right before I go to bed. This gives them a couple of hours after training/hunting, and the most time to digest before possible work the next day. It seems to work out pretty well. |
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Doc_E
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| 07/19/2006 6:15 PM |
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Posted By Jere on 07/18/2006 11:30 AM
1. I feed twice a day to minimize the mass of food ingested, though it seems the current best advice is once a day feeding. I generally defer training for at least two hours after feeding to try and minimize the risk of bloat.
2. But I've read professional advice to wait 24 hours after feeding before strenuous exercise (upland hunting).
3. When I am hunting (all winter from mid-August through mid-February) I take the two dogs for a short clean-out walk first thing in the morning, return to the truck, feed one and take the other hunting. I feed the dog that hunted as soon as we return. This is in deference to the advice to get an amount of easily dogested carbs into the dog within 30 minutes of exhastive exercise to replenish depleted muscle glucose stores.
I don't want to carry the reccommended supplements and have found (as has a friend who hunts his wirehairs hard through the winter) that this practice appears to help the dogs maintain stamina over time.
Jere 1. The most recent studies that I have read suggest feeding 3 times a day (or 2 times if you can't do 3). The "one feeding a day" has been shown to be incorrect. I don't have the study in front of me, but it was the same one that showed that having food and water bowls at ground level was best.
2. Makes no sense to me at all. It takes a dog 12 - 16 hours to fully digest a meal.
3. If you want "rapid easily digested carbs, cooked rice is probably your best bet.
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Doc_E
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| 07/19/2006 6:34 PM |
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Posted By Lab Guy on 07/19/2006 9:05 AM
1. I thought the digestive process was 6 - 8 hours.
2. Last question is why feed the dog at ground level? She is currently fed that way so I am good to go there.
Thanks
Jay
1. Time into the mouth to out of the butt is 12 to 16 hours. Give your dog some whole kernal corn to see.
2. Reduces the rate of Gastric Torsion (bloat).
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Lab Guy
St. Paul, MN
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| 07/19/2006 7:03 PM |
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Thanks for the info Doc, good to know. Does that study have any recomendations regarding feeding times and amounts before hunts? I would guess that duck hunts would be different than upland hunts but maybe not.
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 07/19/2006 7:33 PM |
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| I think of it this way. If I am going to go out and hike several miles, I want to have something in my stomach before I go. I don't want a huge breakfast, because I don't want to get a stomach ache, but if I don't eat anything, I'll be hungry, distracted, weak and probably grouchy. Why aren't dogs the same way? If you don't have lots of time, then give your dog a big milkbone, or 1/2 cup of kibble-not enough to be a big lump in their stomach, but enough to take the edge off and stop the hunger pangs, and let them focus on their job. Then, you can wait until the dog is cooled out before you give them the rest of their meal. |
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stuw
North Central Minnesota
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| 07/19/2006 7:56 PM |
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I always feed after the training session...In the morning the training session will last only 5 or 10 mins...after she's been aired...and had a chance to play for a few minutes...then I feed and water her..and I'm off to work...
With the high temps we've been having lately....we dont train till it cools down abit..or we go to the lake and let her do water retrieves....so it almost 8 by the time we are done....I feed and water her after we are done.....and she's up for the night...
I think the key...is not to OVERFEED...I constantly monitor her ..making sure she's not putting on un needed..or un wated weight....and make sure she always has fresh water... |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 07/19/2006 8:33 PM |
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Some observations:
Once had a lab that would get car sick. Even 20 hours after feeding would throw up undigested kibble. So much for the digestive times mentioned in previous posts. Personally believe transit time is more like 24 to 36 hours.
Years ago-After reading in fancy magazines about 2 or 3 feedings and feeding during hunting to help keep up stamina I tried it and bloated the dog.
-Magazine not renewed...
So- My normal routine is feed 1 x a day in the pm after any exercise. Measured amout.
Hunting routine- feed earlier the day before the trip and get the dog out extra times which brings an extra bowl movement. This gets the
food farther down the pipe by the next am when the hunting begins. Result- dog still hunts all day just fine. Bloat chances are absolutely
minimized.
Keep the bowl on the ground.
Most labs are fat-pure and simple.
Keep the pooch skinny >
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Doc_E
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| 07/19/2006 8:40 PM |
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Posted By hooligan on 07/19/2006 7:33 PM
I think of it this way. If I am going to go out and hike several miles, I want to have something in my stomach before I go. I don't want a huge breakfast, because I don't want to get a stomach ache, but if I don't eat anything, I'll be hungry, distracted, weak and probably grouchy. Why aren't dogs the same way? If you don't have lots of time, then give your dog a big milkbone, or 1/2 cup of kibble-not enough to be a big lump in their stomach, but enough to take the edge off and stop the hunger pangs, and let them focus on their job. Then, you can wait until the dog is cooled out before you give them the rest of their meal.
Hooligan,
Kinda some wrong thinking on your part here (anthropomorphism). The digestive systems of dogs and humans are markedly different. That's why dogs aren't the same way.
When do wild canids hunt? -- When their tummys are full?--NOPE.
When they have a little food in them? -- NOPE.
They hunt when their stores of nutrients (glycogen stores) are beginning to become depleated. It has long been held that dogs hunt (and Test) better when they are hungry.
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Doc_E
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| 07/19/2006 8:42 PM |
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Posted By Lab Guy on 07/19/2006 7:03 PM
Thanks for the info Doc, good to know. Does that study have any recomendations regarding feeding times and amounts before hunts? I would guess that duck hunts would be different than upland hunts but maybe not.
Jay
If you feed at 8 PM, the nutrients from that meal will be most available between 8 AM and Noon of the next day. To me it doesn't matter what kind of hunting the dog is going to do. |
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Doc_E
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| 07/19/2006 8:49 PM |
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Posted By 2Blackdogs! on 07/19/2006 8:33 PM Some observations: 1. Once had a lab that would get car sick. Even 20 hours after feeding would throw up undigested kibble. So much for the digestive times mentioned in previous posts. Personally believe transit time is more like 24 to 36 hours. 2. Years ago-After reading in fancy magazines about 2 or 3 feedings and feeding during hunting to help keep up stamina I tried it and bloated the dog. -Magazine not renewed... So- My normal routine is feed 1 x a day in the pm after any exercise. Measured amout. Hunting routine- feed earlier the day before the trip and get the dog out extra times which brings an extra bowl movement. This gets the food farther down the pipe by the next am when the hunting begins. Result- dog still hunts all day just fine. 3. Bloat chances are absolutely minimized. Keep the bowl on the ground. Most labs are fat-pure and simple. Keep the pooch skinny >
1. Pretty lame protocol for your "findings". The dog got car sick -- when that happens, digestion is markedly slowed down or sometimes halted completely -- so of course there was undigested food even after 20 hours. In a dog with car sickness, the transit time might well be 24 to 36 hours -- but not in a normal healthy dog.
In a normal healthy dog, (without car sickness) transit time from mouth to rectum is 12 to 16 hours. Try the whole kernel corn test if you want to see.
2. Feeding during hunting or hard exercise is flat out stupid. However feeding at least twice (or three times) a day is well documented.
3. 1 meal a day is more likely to cause Gastric Volvulous (twisted gut / bloat) than 2 or 3 meals a day.
Just keep feedings at least an hour (preferably two hours) before or after strenuous activity.
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 07/19/2006 9:34 PM |
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Doc - That old dog was fed at 5pm. If taken in the car at 1 pm the NEXT DAY. She has had 20hrs to digest. Get in the car , at 20 hrs and 5 min whole
kibble puke. Digestion had 20 hrs. to get ready for the ride. |
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2Blackdogs!
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| 07/19/2006 9:51 PM |
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Did a google on dog transit times...looks like 22 to 59 hours in dogs dependant on size ....sounds like fresh kibble on the floor mat to me!
"Fed the same diet, large and giant-breed dogs have higher faecal moisture and increased frequency of soft stools than small ones. This could be the result of physiological differences, such as a different gastrointestinal transit time. In this study, we have correlated mean total transit time (MTT) with body size and faecal consistency in dogs varying in body size. Fifty dogs from 13 different breeds were used, from a Dachshund to a Great Dane. The MTT was determined using coloured plastic beads [Cummings and Wiggins, Gut, Vol. 17 (1976), p. 219], and faecal consistency was scored daily during the study. We confirmed the strong correlation between height at the shoulder (body size) and faecal score (r = 0.76; p < 0.0001). The MTT increased with body size, from 22 h for a Miniature Poodle to 59 h for a Giant Schnauzer. We found significant positive correlations (p < 0.0001) between MTT and body size as well as faecal scores (r = 0.71 and 0.70 respectively). In the present study, we observed an effect of body size on MTT. In our 50 healthy dogs a longer MTT was related to a poorer faecal quality. Previous studies reported no relationship between body size and the upper gastrointestinal transit time in healthy dogs. So, we hypothesized that body size would mainly affect colonic transit time and that a longer colonic residence time would be related to a poorer faecal quality by promoting fermentation activity. "
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Doc_E
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| 07/19/2006 10:51 PM |
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2Blackdogs,
If you do a google seach using the keywords "dog digestion time", you will see that the vast majority of articles say 7 to 16 hours. You have found one article that supports your hypothesis -- I have found many that support mine.
Again, I suggest that you try the whole kernel corn test.
In general :
Raw foods (particularly meats) digest in 4.5 hours, but certain meats are faster or slower
Processed Foods (canned food) digest in 9 hours
Dry Dog Foods digest in 16 hours
"Digestion" in this case means when the dog begins to recieve energy/nutrition from what it ate.
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Jere
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| 07/19/2006 10:54 PM |
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The sled dog guys have learned a bunch about nutrition, feeding protocol, burst performance, repeated performance day after day over the years. One of them; Arleigh Reynolds, DVM, PhD; has published rather widely and has helped other sporting dog owners understand the results of the studies. A google search will bring a bunch of pages up. The Purina site has a fair amount of somewhat more general stuff.
I don't know about rice vis-avis the types of carbs they want to get into the dogs within 1/2 hour of strenuous exercise, I remember 1.5 gm/kg body weight of small glucose polymers called maltoldextrans - Polycos (trademark from Ross Pharmaceuticals in Columbus Ohio). Informal experiments and blood tests with dogs running the sprint dog circuit (three days of 20 mile races) seemed to suggest dogs getting the carbs immediately after a race were able to sustain their perfomance level on the second and third days better than those that did not.
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hooligan
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| 07/19/2006 11:49 PM |
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Doc E-I understand that is biology for wild canids. However, our dogs are socially different from wild canids-they don't hunt for their food, and they are trained to eat when the food is put in front of them, not when biology tells them to hunt and eat. And, how different are our digestive systems, really? We have the same parts with the same functions... I have observed that my dogs are better focused on a task if they are not thinking about food-not just fed, when they are full and sleepy-but not 12-18 hours after their last meal, either, when they just want to get done with whatever you want them to do so they can eat whatever might be edible nearby. Maybe out hunting you want your dog thinking about food so he finds more birds-if he thinks birds are food, and not just something he finds so he gets a retrieve-after all, that is the reward, right? Not eating the bird...so how does being hungry make him hunt better? Not everything that has long been held to be true is...the world used to be flat...  |
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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