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Subject: Ranging Too Far

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Tom

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07/07/2006 8:07 AM	Alert
My two year old PL is absolutely crazy about hunting and birds. This is a good thing, since when he was four or five months old I was concerned that he would always be more interested in chipmunks and butterflies than birds. Anyway, the down side of his wild enthusiasm is that now when I tell him to "hunt 'em up," he takes off like a bat out of hell. He quarters and will follow my hand signals, but he has so much energy that for the first hour or two of any hunt, the hunters almost have to run to keep up with him. I know that this is a basic question, does anybody have suggestions for me on how to make Trigger stay in closer while he hunts?

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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07/07/2006 9:30 AM	Alert
Does he hold his point long enough for you to catch up to him when he finds a bird? Do you let him out of the truck and do any OB with him before you start hunting?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Tom

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07/07/2006 9:53 AM	Alert
I've been able to catch up to him when he finds a bird, but that is because I've been practically jogging. I haven't tested how long he will hold his point. He holds his point until I release him, but I haven't pushed it more than 45 seconds or so. It probably doesn't make any sense, but I've been worried that if I let him lose his patience and break his point, he will learn that is "part of the game." I also haven't just let him range out to see what happens, because I figure that while he was running around like a madman he would probably accidentally bump birds that I wouldn't be able to get a shot at. Unfortunately, here in NH, the ONLY available birds are at hunting preserves, and for $15-25 a bird, doing a lot of experimenting isn't an option for me. No -- I haven't done any OB training witgh him before starting hunting. I can try that next time. Like I said, though, he is obedient and listens to me while he is hunting, he just gets so excited that instead of staying close, he'll run out 100 - 150 yards in front of me. I can call him back, sit him down next to me, let him calm down, etc., but as soon as I tell him to hunt 'em up again, he is off like a shot. . . .

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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07/07/2006 11:01 AM	Alert
It is tough to train when you are paying for preserve birds! That is what is often available to us, too. Not that I know much, but I think I'd try trusting him, and see if he will hold his point until you get there. If he won't hold it long enough, then someone with lots more smarts than me will be able to help you. But if he busts the bird and doesn't get to retrieve, that's not fun for him, either-I'd bet he "knows the rules"!

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

wdlfbio

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07/07/2006 11:20 AM	Alert
I think of having a pointing dawg that covers more ground a bonus, not a problem. however, I also realize that most folks with PLs prefer the short range of a traditional flushing lab, but prefer teh dawg to point. To each their own. If the dawg holds point - sweet and you have no problem other than maybe adjusting your ideas about how a dawg should hunt and accept that your dawg covers ground, finds birds for you, and holds them until you get there to flush. Now, if your dawg is busting them and you want a chance to shoot at a busted bird, then you should start thinking about checkcording the dawg to teach it to stay in range. Jere may have a couple posts about this if you search this forum. Checkcording would be the same starting point if you just wanted to keep the dawg in closer range for no other reason than you want a dawg to hunt close too.

LuckyNash
Brigham, Utah

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07/07/2006 11:49 AM	Alert
If he is whistle trained, I would just blow a short, crisp, sit whistle when he starts to get out of range. Sometimes I would call back in and other times I would have him sit and wait for you. Try to be consistent on how far you want him to range. If you only want him out 50-60 yrds then stop him when he goes beyond that. When his point is solid and you have confidence in him, then range won't be as important. I believe with time and experience, he will figure out the "Range" on when birds fly and when birds die...

Jere

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07/07/2006 12:32 PM	Alert
I'll add a little. When you run or jog to keep up with him you "push" him out even more or at least speed him up. He's working where he feels comfortable - at the limits of his ability to keep track of where you are. (I'm assuming he's a reasonably cooperative dog as most Labs. should be.) You should be able to influence his range by walking or even stopping and/or walking a very pronounced zig-zag course. When I want my dog to turn, whether he's near me or out 300 yards, I simply turn and walk in the direction I want him to turn to. The only time I'll call to him is when I've gone a few tens of yards and the dog hasn't yet noticed I've turned and is about to disappear over a rise or behind some terrain or cover feature. Then its a loud "Ho Storm" (or Tucker as the case may be) and may be a wave of the arm to enhance visability. You don't need birds to work on this stuff. Any piece of cover, relatively open if possible, and expansive enough will do. The dog needs to learn it is his responsibility to keep track of you not the other way around. If you insist on him working closer, train him to turn on some verbal or whistle signal and turn him everytime he reaches that limit. This "hacking" should eventually result in him self-limiting his range. An ecollar could be used too, but substantial foundation work should be done first - I don't think I'd go that way with this dog at this stage of his development. Personally, I prefer the dog to limit his working range comensurate with his ability to keep track of my location and movements in the cover we're working. Highly excitable dogs sometimes can pose a problem when they get a snootful of bird scent - like if you went way north and got into flocks of wild ruffed grouse in the trees perhaps. Not sure I'd worry about the check cord stuff at this point - least ways not until you establish that the dog will not hold point long enough for you to get to his point and flush the birds. Give it a try anyway. And, when you approach him on point, do so calmly. Jere

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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07/07/2006 1:29 PM	Alert
Bob Wehle describes a method in Wing and Shot that I've used with great success on other dogs, but have not used on Pi. It works well when properly introduced and a dog will hunt in close when using the method. Basically you use a different whistle, using a small pea whistle which is much higher toned than the standard thunder whistles. Thunder whistles are widely used in the pointing dog world, most use the medium or large for casting and or calling in the dog. The small sized thunder whistle is used to make them hunt in close. You plant or release birds and as soon as the dog is in the area you hit the pea whistle in several toot, toot, toots. Dogs will pick up pretty quickly that this indicates birds are in the area. Once you have worked them several times with this, and you hit the whistle they will hunt in close to you because they expect birds to be in the area. You can get an all age pointer that normally ranges up to a ½ mile away to hunt in close and hunt 5 acres for 30 minutes or more. With Pi I use pretty much what Jere described but add in “look in here” after stopping and reeling in Pi. She has learned that “look in here” relates to birds. I use the same command on a retrieve when she is in the area but has not found the bird, but now it is "dead in here, look in here, dead". Starting out with obedience is also a good way to set the tone, as recommended by Hooligan. You can also reel him in occasionally during the hunt and reinforce obedience. Hiding or sitting down should make him come in and look for you as well. I like Jere’s point that the dog should be looking for you rather than the other way around. Doesn’t always start out that way with young dogs with a lot of drive, but not difficult to accomplish through repetition. It really nice when you and your pup get in tune with each other. They learn to turn with your movement and many times when you are just thinking about turning they seem to know and do it before you ask them. On the same hand if your dog is on track of a find you need to learn when to go to and or follow your dog. Doesn’t happen overnight and is sure nice when it all comes together. I sent you and email Tom

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Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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07/08/2006 6:24 AM	Alert
As long as the dog will respond to the come in whistle, just blow it when the dog gets "too far". When the dog is back in the range that you desire, give him the "hunt em up" again, with a hand signal as to the direction you want the dog to go. I much prefer this instead of having the dog SIT. Just bring the dog closer to you (come in) and then at the desired range, give the dog the hunt em up. A big running dog is very cool, as long as you are able to adjust how far out you want them -- desired range is dependant on what kind of birds you are hunting. On preserve birds, (that hold well), and your dog holds point, let your dog range out -- but walk/don't run to catch up with the dog. On spooky (late season) birds, keep the dog closer. When we hunt Grouse out here, the vegetation is so thick that keeping a dog closer is better. When we hunt early season Pheasants or Quail, let the dog range out. As birds get wiser and spookier, keep the dog closer. All you have to do is "handle" your dog. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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08/11/2006 6:56 PM	Alert
I would work on breaking the dog to wing before I went pulling the dog in. Just start reading up on how to break dogs, good pointer books will work. Get him used to standing game until you either kick the bird or release him.

sonicman Moderator

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08/30/2006 9:08 PM	Alert
Tom, There is no way to cure this. You should get rid of the dog. Just send him to me. I run a "retirement" home for big running staunch pointing dogs that can't be cured................ If he is collar conditioned don't be afraid to nick him when he has refused your whistles/commands to stay in range. He will figure out pretty quick that it is safe out to 50 yards (for instance) and "hot" any further out. When you are pheasant hunting the dogs job is to keep enough pressure on the bird that he either sits for a point (best), or he flies (OK too). It doesn't do any good for the bird to get up outside of gun range though.

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