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mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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06/26/2006 1:25 PM	Alert
Hello all, This is a pretty basic question, but I'm very new to training bird dogs. I have a 3 1/2 month old pup (from Bearpoint's Bear and Rox) that is coming along absolutely beautifully (Thanks Dale and Brenda for such a wonderful pup!). She loves to retrieve, and when the dummy's in decent cover, she'll spend lots of time looking for it before she sulks back empty handed. If she does come back w/out the dummy, I say her name and point back in the direction of the dummy, and she actually goes back out and looks for it again. Of course, I help her find it at this point so she doesn't get discouraged at this young age. But I feel bad when my mark falls where she can't find it easily. I wanted to put some bird scent on the dummy so that she would have an easier time finding it, but didn't know if this might encourage her to go straight in after birds, and condition her to the fact that she will actually get the "bird" if she charges straight in. What do you guys think about using bird scent on dummies? Thanks, Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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06/26/2006 1:33 PM	Alert
Have you ever smelled "scent"? Even to our poor human noses, a "scent" certainly doesn't smell anything like the real thing. A good nose should be able to smell the plain ol' dummy just fine. At 3.5 months, I'd be doing retrieves on VERY SHORT grass -- and certainly not in deep cover. At this stage of the game, train for success. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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06/26/2006 4:17 PM	Alert
Yep, what Doc said. White bumpers in short grass........only, and there is no need for scented bumpers at any time. The theory behind this is your pup already has a nose and he just hasn't sorted out what all the real scents mean. If you don't fully bring out his ability to look for things early on (i.e. as in seeing), he'll not develop that to its fullest extent. An excellent marking dog uses his nose and eyes to be successful. Basically no cover for retrieves now.........just visible success.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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06/27/2006 8:31 PM	Alert
Hey, thanks a lot for the advice guys - I was concerned that I was making things a little too hard for her, but didn't realize how simple I should be keeping it. 1) Kwik: "White bumpers in short grass........only" brings up another question I had: I have been using white canvas bumpers but recently started mixing in some orange plastic ones as well. Should I stay away from the plastic... and/or the orange -- why?? 2) Also, how can I tell when my pup is ready to start doing more than 3 or 4 retrieves at a time. I know its early yet - but I can only get a helper to throw for me about once a week, and I'd like to eventually take better advantage of that day to get some more marks in. 3) This actually brings up question number 3 (sorry to get carried away on this thread!) Since 6 days of the week, I'm throwing the bumpers myself, I recently tried holding my pup in place by stepping on a short check cord, until I release her. This seemed to work OK - except it sometimes distracts her, and a couple times she worked up enough slack to make a lunge only to be caught by the rope! This slightly de-motivated her for that particular mark, although her eagerness seemed to return for the next mark. But I don't want to discourage her at this point at all, so I'm back to the instantaneous throw/release. Any suggestions for practicing the "mark until released" method while training solo? Thanks, Matt

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!

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06/27/2006 9:00 PM	Alert
Orange to a dog is like to a deer- thought to look green actually! Gots to do with rods and cones in the eye balls. Keep her successful-but try to keep her challenged while having fun (successful).

wdlfbio

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06/28/2006 9:29 PM	Alert
Matt, Throwing bumpers to be retrieved is considered a marking drill. The objective of marking drills is to teach the dawg to SEE where the bumper falls and use the memory of the fall in conjunction with her eyesight to find the bumper. What frequently occurs when you progress too fast or start off too tough (i.e., heavy cover or orange bumpers) is that you force the dawg to learn to trust its nose more than its eyes. This expresses itself when the dawg maybe takes a good line towards the fall area but begins hunting way short or going long. While the dawg may eventually get to the area of the fall and find the bumper, it's sloppy and slow. You want as quick a retrieve as possible. The dawg may kinda remember the fall direction, but has learned so much to trust its ability to "hunt it up" that it doesn't learn to rely on its eyesight. Either the dawg can smell or not. Your not going to teach it to smell (all bumpers come prescented, they just may not smell like phony dead pheasant). But, you have to teach the dawg to mark. So, while throwing big white bumpers in the middle of a soccer field may appear "simple", it actually teaches the dawg to use its eyes and mark. One the dawg is marking simple throws well, you can start to add other factors (difficulty levels) one at a time. If the dawg starts to break down and do poorly, just back up a step or two and rebuild the dawg's confidence. Remember these words... You can't train a lab too slowly, but you can screw them up for a very long time in 20 minutes or less. At 3 1/2 months, I'm wanting my pup to be a bundle of fire. The last thing I'm worried about is trying to steady her up. Most folks would rather have a dawg with what some consider too much energy than to have a dawg with too little. It's easy to take it out of a dawg later on, but very tough to put it back in. I say throw and watch her go. When you have a buddy throw, hold on to her until he throws and release her (fetch, name, or both) while it's in mid air. maybe around 5+ months start to steady her up.

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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06/29/2006 6:42 AM	Alert
Nicely explained, Wdlfbio!

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

mattkeenan
Salem, OR

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06/29/2006 9:09 AM	Alert
Great - thanks for the replies everyone! This is really great to have such an experienced forum specifically for pointing labs. In my inexperience, perhaps I thought that the simple marks were too easy for her (i.e. when in a "soccer field", she tears after the bumper, snatches it right up and bolts straight back to deliver to hand , 95% of the time), and thought it was time to move to the next step (ie restraining her until she is released, throwing into moderate cover, etc. But I guess im in a good place to just hang out for a bit, and keep her performing well (and succeeding). I think I will do some water marks next - where she can still see - then start to work in some very light cover - and only work on the pause before the release when I can get a helper, even if thats not very often. I certainly don't want to dampen the desire to retrieve. Thanks again!

Matthew Keenan matthew.t.keenan@gmail.com

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