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Subject: Angle entries and exits.......
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/07/2006 10:24 AM Alert 

present a problem for the young retriever. The tendency to "square" an entry throws a dog off line and complicates marking. Once a dog knows how  to handle, this natural tendency can be reduced by de-cheating which teaches the concept of taking the correct line.   

To further work on angle entries and exits, I use short tune-up drills. Short is good because there is more control over your dog when you are close. Repeated exposure to the concept 1) makes the dog more aware of what you are trying to teach 2) establishes permanent expectations and 3) produces a comfort level which makes it easier to enforce. Here is a pond with two drills set up to deal with left and right sided heeling.  This drill is not a major part of a day's training and not done every day. 

While training on these grounds,  I usually have a land and water series of marks. The tune-up drill (if we need to work on this) will be run in between. The water set-up would incorporate marks with angle entries and exits (while it is still very fresh). I'd rather handle in a drill than on marks, but if handling is necessary the concept is clear and easy to enforce.   

When first setting these up, each "line" will have two visible white bumpers, and we work for precise lines. Later it becomes kind of a mini-set of pattern blinds and the bumpers are changed to orange. Finally, it becomes a review of the concept (kind of like a maintenance drill) which can be done in various ponds of similar design.  As you can see the distances are short (can and should be increased for the experienced dog) so it doesn't take long to run.  No e-collar is used because it is all teaching through attrition. 










Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected"
Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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01/09/2006 5:49 AM Alert 
Kwick, do you always start with that close of a cut, or do you simplify it a little more before demanding that much temptation to run the bank? For instance running them all from the number one position in reverse order on the piles?

Excellent post!

Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest
KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/09/2006 8:55 AM Alert 
Jay, when we run drills like this the dog has already been thoroughly decheated, so they know about taking correct lines and how it will be dealt with (attrition).  Initially, when I decheat, the lines transistion from easy to difficult. And don't forget the dog should have been through swim-by and doing basic lining drills (in water).  

These tune-up drill lines are trying at first by design because I don't like to waltz around a lesson which is meant to deepen an already taught concept (the de-cheat).  I think it is better to get right to what you are teaching and make it clear (in this case).  Usually that first line is pretty ugly (even with the white visible bumper), but the dog knows how to handle (will get in the water). So, you just quietly show him the line.  Patience and keeping things low key are critical at this time. Repetition and attrition will eventually
produce correct lines and it doesn't have to come together on the first day. It helps if you have a dog that feels capable of doing anything you ask. When training is going well, a dog is in that "groove".

It is very important for a dog to have a "learning mode" and to have the
neceassry skills in place to deal with any new drill. Therefore, a drill like
this will be nothing more than an extension of concepts you've already worked on. Thus, the dog is never totally clueless and accepts any
confusion as a normal thing that is worked through. The dog knows or
has an inner confidence that "Ok, I get it this!" will be the end result.

This is not a drill that can be stuck into any training day just because it looks "cool".



Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected"
Larry Moderator
Independence, KS

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01/09/2006 9:16 AM Alert 
JIM,

You need to write a book of training concepts. This is quite good.

Larry


Larry, the pointing lab enthusiast
GMPR HRCH Raider's Jumpin Jack Flash MH Master National Hall of Fame
4xGMPR HRCH Cypress Creek Harleys MS Mac MH Master National Hunter
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APR Jack's Bin Der Dun Dat JH
Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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01/09/2006 9:32 AM Alert 
Do you only retrieve one of the bumpers, or two if the first was not done correctly?

Well put!

Next I'm going to ask you about these water lining drills you speak of. ;)

Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest
KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/09/2006 9:56 AM Alert 
Larry and Jay thanks for the kind words. It is interesting how a dog can actually teach you to train better if you just "listen" to them and "meet" their needs. 

Julie has driven home the idea of getting into a dog's head and looking at it from their perspective, and many, many years ago I read a book written by a trainer that specialized in working with problem horses where he
stated "humans are supposedly smarter than animals".  So
given those two thoughts, there are a lot of "ifs" to dog training.  I regularly find myself  asking "Why am I doing this (or that)?"

Two things that I have discovered over the last few years is that keeping a journal with honest comments which I have to deal with and writting posts which force me to organize my thoughts have helped tremedously.  At first, as a "newbie" trainer, I was very mechanical and the process was more about what I was going to try next when I didn't even know how.  I got lucky and had a dog that didn't seem to mind.  In my case, the dog did the teaching.  Thanks Dr. Taffey. 

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected"
bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri

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01/09/2006 10:00 AM Alert 
Kwick,  I am still being taught by Dr Brady, but with your posts I am learning that I can actually teach him a few things.  Thanks for taking the time to post Quality Posts like you have been doing.  They really help us new trainers out there. 

Joe
Jay
Topeka, KS Go GORILLAS!!

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01/09/2006 11:05 AM Alert 
Ditto.....but you never answered my question. ;)

Jay

There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.
GMPR APR HR Tornado Allie of Blk Forest
KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/09/2006 12:39 PM Alert 
"Do you only retrieve one of the bumpers or two if the first was not done correctly?"  

Yes, but it really depends. On the first exposure, the plan is to repeat and make it clear cut.  Teaching requires repitition. 

The problem comes when a dog 1) has not been forced to water correctly,  2) does not have the mechanics in place for lining into water and 3) is not drill orientated. So it is possible to have this drill blow up if the dog is not prepared.

If that goes well and you proceed to the orange bumper routine (another day), then you can go back and use white, but only pick up one creating a variation or different "look" so to speak in that now the dog has to decide whether he is going to line up the way you want him to (and take it) or go to the old line (visible).  So it depends on what you want from this set-up. Once Taffey or Kooly understood and worked through the variations, I would come back with one orange bumper per line when I felt their marking hinted at a need for reviewing the standard.  Sometimes this would be in a different place (more like cold blinds). 

As for lining drills in water before this angle entry concept, find a channel and place  bumpers down the opposite shore (which are not cheaty).  Now
the dog is already use to crossing water and the routine of lining. Which
means when you do the above drill the only thing of concern will be
eliminating the natural tendency to square an entry or run the shoreline.  



Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected"
KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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01/12/2006 6:08 PM Alert 
Here's a photo of how I ran Kooly last  summer on the same pond that Taffey ran her's in 2003.  I took the easier approach with him. 







Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
----------------------------------
"Excellence is Expected"
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