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Hullabaloo

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04/16/2006 2:47 AM	Alert
O.K., I know this topic is often worked to death, but I still have questions...maybe y'all can help out. Went out to work as a gunner with my retriever trainer last week, and took my 15 month old PL "Kizmet". They were preparing for an AKC hunt test, so I thought this would be a great opportunity to see how my "Whoa" training had taken. We kept Kiz on a check cord to keep her from chasing after the flush, she would wind the bird, and when she got close to it, (they were flagged) I would "Whoa" her. She was pointing well and holding until I released her to flush. I guess that is my question. Do you allow the dog to flush on your command, or do you walk up and flush them? As soon as the bird takes off, so does she. Completely ignores a sit whistle. How do I rectify this (if I've completely screwed up), I'm at a loss. Never trained a dog before, and was proud that I have her "whoa" well started. Don't have the facilities to train with live birds, but I'm thinkin this chasing thing has got to stop. I would appreciate any advice y'all could give me. The 'triever trainers think I've got a screw loose wanting her to flush for me. Are they right? Thanks!

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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04/16/2006 6:03 AM	Alert
I'm not quite sure what you were doing. What kind of AKC test was this? If it was a retriever test what was she pointing because in a retriever test there is nothing to point but thrown dead ducks or live ducks prepared for a flyer presentation? (maybe pigeons in training?) Secondly, no it is not a good idea to have a young pointing Lab flushing birds on command. And lastly, it might be a good idea (no....it is required) to find a way to train with live birds and "dechase" your young dog.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/16/2006 6:11 AM	Alert
Personally, I wouldn't let a dog make the flush until it has been 100% SOLID at pointing for at least a couple years. Some folks NEVER let their dog make the flush. As Kwick said, you definitely need to "dechase" (also called "Steady to Flush" -- which is also "Steady to Flush/Shotand Fall"). .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Hullabaloo

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04/16/2006 6:55 AM	Alert
Okay, in response to KwikLabs...I should have made myself more clear, they were training for an Upland hunt test (finding and flushing birds). Because I worked as a gunner, they let me plant some birds for my dog. I will definitely change my tactics and not let her flush anymore and will reread all my books on how to steady her to flush. It is very difficult to work at home with live birds, but when we head to the deer lease will try to get her on some quail. Although, I worry about her never getting to retrieve if I can't shoot the birds (not in season). Very frustrating for her and me. Thanks for your advice, appreciate your time.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/16/2006 7:32 AM	Alert
Posted By Hullabaloo on 04/16/2006 6:55 AM 1. Okay, in response to KwikLabs...I should have made myself more clear, they were training for an Upland hunt test (finding and flushing birds). 2. Although, I worry about her never getting to retrieve if I can't shoot the birds (not in season). Very frustrating for her and me. Thanks for your advice, appreciate your time. 1. I wasn't aware that AKC had an Upland Test. 2. If all else fails, get some pigeons. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Hullabaloo

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04/16/2006 7:35 AM	Alert
Did I say AKC? My bad, HRC. I wonder if I could trap some of the dove hanging around? Lots of whitewing. Hmmmmm. Definitely an option.

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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04/16/2006 8:33 AM	Alert
Check out "tip of the month" at this site www.gunclub-labs.com There was an article about dechasing posted there that might help you.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Jere

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04/16/2006 11:50 PM	Alert
Did you ask about developing the pup on the old Pointinglabs.com site last year? I remember someone from TX with a pup and a deer lease etc. asking... Anyway, I agree with Doc re the commanded flush. I'll go further though and say if you want the dog to be a reliable pointer you should consider a step by step program of developing same and FORGET whoaing the dog onto birds. The result is not a point - it is a commanded stand. You'll find a wealth of information on developing pointing, including a log of one PL owner's experience with his pup (look in the files section of the site referenced next) at the yahoo forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pointingdogs Trapping those doves is as illegal as shooting the out of season quail. Find some pigeons. Jere

Hullabaloo

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04/17/2006 1:47 AM	Alert
Okay, my ignorance is really showing now. I knew that about the doves. What was I thinking? Yes, it was probably me about the dog in Tx. I guess my problem is that I ask for lots and lots of advice, from different places (trying to get a spectrum) and then I lose sight of what it is I really want from her. I knew that you (Jere) would disagree about the "Whoa". But when I do get to train with folks, they say it's a good thing. I guess I just need to pull my head out make a decision and stick with it. If I don't I'm just going to confuse this poor dog to death. My inexperience is really showing. Thanks for all the tips and advice, I'm going to take a step back, digest everything I've read, all the advice, then develop a plan. I appreciate y'all not beating me up too badly. Suz

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/17/2006 9:52 AM	Alert
There is nothing wrong with WHOA -- it's just that you don't use it to train a dog to point. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Hullabaloo

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04/17/2006 12:30 PM	Alert
I'm confused. Is that what I said? If I did I apologise. She points all by herself, when she does, I "Whoa" her so she won't just jump in and flush. In the beginning, months ago, I may have done, but I realized my mistake. Man, I sound so B*%@hy. Sorry. Frustration is my problem. That and heat. It's 100 degrees here today....Isn't it still April? I understand what everyone is saying, and will heed everyone's advice. Thanks again.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/17/2006 5:38 PM	Alert
Posted By Hullabaloo on 04/17/2006 12:30 PM I "Whoa" her so she won't just jump in and flush. In the beginning, months ago, I may have done, but I realized my mistake. What does she do if you don't WHOA her? Have you ever tried it? . .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Jere

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04/17/2006 8:41 PM	Alert
What Doc said with a proviso: Don't try it on planted birds she might catch unless you have her on a check cord or are ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE she will obey your "whoa" after the bird flushes. We both know that is not the case. So, bring her into the scent cone from a side, fairly close to the bird. She points. Shorten the lead and get close to the dog but keep it slack. If you have a helper with a gun, have the helper approach the bird from in front of the dog - off to the side a bit, maybe 45 degree angle - moving towards the dog. If dog holds and helper flushes bird, have helper kill the bird. retstrain dog very briefly and release for the retrieve. If she breaks and busts the bird, spin her with the check cord (gently please) (you can give a "whoa" here also without harm but I don't and wouldn't. It would help "proof" your "whoa.")and let the bird fly away. Go to her quickly shortening the lead and do not let her dance around, just let her watch the bird down and then lead her away in a direction opposite to the one the bird took. Go to another bird. If you have no helper, you'll have to try and move past her to flush the bird. She'll break and you'll have to prevent her from catching the bird by spinning her. Trickier and will take more time. You really need to try and work through the lack of training birds and get into your mind an effective process to steady her on point. I don't want to type it all out again. I can send you some stuff, and have pointed you at some. She's not obeying your "whoa." She will obey the check cord. I believe, but can not guarantee (because you're starting somewhat ahead of the game ), she will stop busting birds with some repititions of this and let you move up to flush the bird. At that point you need someone to kill the bird for her - show her what the game is, let her get feathers in her mouth for doing it correctly. There is foundation work I would suggest before getting to this place including transitioning from the check cord to an e-collar. It CAN be done without an e-collar but will go more rapidly with. And the transition to wild birds will be easier too. Jere

Hullabaloo

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04/18/2006 1:50 AM	Alert
Thanks Jere, makes alot of sense. Will try to get ahold of some pigeons so I can work on that. Yes, I will be by myself so that does make it more difficult. As for Doc E's ?, I have tried to see what she would do and you can absolutely tell when she catches the scent, she heads directly for the bird makes like she's going to point then jumps in hell-bent-for-leather. Last week, she did hold the point, but broke when I flushed the bird. So, will work the check cord at first, then reinforce with the collar. Thanks again.

oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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04/21/2006 7:42 AM	Alert
Use a checkcord to put her on birds, when the birds are flushed you go back and quitly put the dog back in her place. As she starts to understand that she is supposed to stand, you can start to use more force. Steadying out a dog really isn't that hard, it just takes 100's of hours until you can expect a dog to stay steady at all times. Don't get down on yourself, for a first timer you are doing alright. If you want a steady dog you have a long road ahead of you. Unless you just want her to sit and shock her into it. A dog loses it's class on birds in a hurry, it is my belief that's why some of these GMPR's look terrible on point.To many people are worried about the speed the process can be accomplished and little about what the end product looks like.

Jere

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04/21/2006 1:31 PM	Alert
Oakcreek is right. It takes as long as it takes. Only the dog can tell you when to go to the next level. When you take the dog out to work birds, plan on working three to five at the most. If the dog does a better job, ie progresses past its level of the last time out, on the very first bird; pat the dog, say "good girl", release her and go away and put her up for the day. She "took a little step" saw that you liked it. She will remember the last experience of the day better than anything else. Let it set up in her head. The pyramids were not built in a day - your dog will not develop good manners on birds in a day either. Now, just how long might this be... The $64,000 question. The pointy dog folks I work with occassionally and learned the method from keep a green dog for about three months. They typically work the dog on pideons three days a week as above until the dog has been collar conditioned (ie responds to nick with collar as reliably as it does to slight check cord input to the neck) and has run dragging the lead for a bit. Then the dog will be worked, without lead, on pen raised game birds flown into a training field two days a wekk until they are solid on this. They are then "green broke." Total training sessions less than 30 days and will include a bird dog man's version of FF. They will probably not be SWS. This will take longer. I found my Labs. took to steady to wing and shot quite naturally. You will find a PL guys log of his experience at that yahoo pointing dogs group. I think he spent most of a summer with his dog. Jere

Hullabaloo

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04/21/2006 2:54 PM	Alert
Thanks, I appreciate the input. It's easy for me to beat myself up, but she just loves being out there. We go outside and she starts quartering the pasture (usually managing to hit every cactus on the place) looking for birds. So, I spend time (that I should be training) picking prickly pear thorns off of every conceivable place on her body. Oh,and she's very wiggly. Anyway, have been listening hard, and taking a time out with the training. Will endeavor to do everyone proud. lol. One can only hope. Thanks again.

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