LuckyNash
Brigham, Utah
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| 04/04/2006 9:20 AM |
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I have been teaching my 5 yr old casting, following Mike Lardys program. I have began the F.T.P with an ear pinch sending from my side to the back pile around 20 yrds and increasing the distance over time. I start out with a “Back”, Pinch “Back". I did this for a couple of weeks and then went to stick to pile for another week or so. Lucky was doing very well and the momentum was strong. However…
I recently started using the e-collar to be able to force at half way sending from my side and I am running into problems. I send him from my side with a, “Back”, Nick “Back” and he will take a few steps, pause,. As soon as he starts to pause, I get after him by another “back” nick “back”. He will just stand there motionless and look at me until I move in to pinch his ear and he gets moving after that. I’m not quite sure how to read him, I’m afraid the collar pressure is either confusing him, or it is bad timing on my part.? Is this a common problem? I only use the collar averaging once in 4-5 sends and I get poor responses with it so I put the e-collar on the shelf for a while. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Matt |
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scribbles
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| 04/05/2006 10:49 AM |
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I am not a pro trainer and don't play one on TV, but here goes:
Are you doing the BACK nick BACK as he leaves your side?
Try using BACK to get the dog going, then BACK nick BACK as the dog is well along in route. Remember to only nick the dog every 3rd or 4th time, not every time he runs to the back pile, to keep good momentum and attitude.
If the dog no-goes you on your verbal BACK, then quickly step forward a few paces with a HEEL nick, SIT, then try the BACK command again.
I have found though, it is much more successful to start the dog from a left/right hand back cast as the dog is sitting in front of you, and using the BACK nick BACK on the dog in route. When it has got this down then occasionally send from your side. Keeps the dog from developing all sorts of unwanted behaviors (bugging, no-going, snapping, cowering etc), as a result of too much pressure at your side.
I sure like this different color text.  |
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LuckyNash
Brigham, Utah
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| 04/06/2006 7:09 AM |
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Thanks for the post scribbles,
I believe you are correct about starting the dog from a left/right back cast as he is sitting in front of me. I get good responses that way and it is a lot less confusing to him.
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Lablvr
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| 04/06/2006 4:13 PM |
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Appears your dog is associating the "back" with the nick. As long as your dog assimilates your comand with a negative correction it's naturally going to wonder what the heck is going on and provide the confussed and "what have I done wrong now look!" In order to correct things, first take your e-collar and place it in a garage sale. Then teach your dog hand signal commands by working on a steady diet of baseball and star drills until the commands become second nature. Your problem will work itself out.
Good Luck! |
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" A dog never learned anything sitting in it's pen." |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 04/06/2006 8:42 PM |
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Well, I think the question was about doing force to pile. To do FTP fairly the dog needs to have been following a program that sequentially leads to that lesson. Getting rid of the collar is not the solution to doing FTP.
So the question should be.....what has been done to prepare your dog for FTP? Has your dog been FF'd and CC'd? An e-collar requires proper cconditioning and is only effective if the dog understands how to respond to it. Doing FTP "out of context" is not fair to a dog and could prove to be very confusing.
You mentioned using Lardy's Program, where did you start? and what steps have you completed? |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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LuckyNash
Brigham, Utah
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| 04/06/2006 11:28 PM |
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Lucky has been fully FF and CC'd. I have also completed the walking stick fetch and a minimal amount of collar fetch. We have the three-handed cast down solid using Back and Over with the appropriate hand signals with him sitting in a remote position. I then removed the side piles and began the FTP. Trying to generate more speed and conviction out of him to the back pile. I did this by mixing in sending from my side with an ear pinch to get him moving off the line and I would also mix in the stick pressure from a remote sit. His momentum was good most of the time. I started to use the collar thinking that would generate that little extra zeal to the pile I am looking for. Not a good idea, I just confuse him. So, I put the collar back in the bag.
I watch the Lardy videos, and that has made me realize that I have adult ADD.
Matt
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 04/07/2006 7:50 AM |
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LuckyNash, Don't get down on yourself.The first time I watched Lardy's videos the immediate reaction was.........experience makes it look easy. Using the collar at the right time and with the correct intensity is not easy to do first time out of the box. However, it appears that you are working toward that end as the sequence you've worked looks good.
The rule to apply when a dog is confused is to simplify.........this doesn't necessarily mean you have to quite. Working with a older dog is a challenge. Keep at it. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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LuckyNash
Brigham, Utah
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| 04/18/2006 8:43 AM |
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I took a step back, and have been using the stick for the pressure with him sitting in a remote position. Things are starting to pull together now.
You are right Kwick, experience does make it look easy, too easy. |
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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas
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| 04/21/2006 7:34 AM |
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| Try leading him to the pile, then bringing him back to the line. They call it a sight blind, I guess if he is having a problem understanding to leave your side that should help with the problem. I however have seen people use a leash and keep the back nick back going while leading the dog to the pile only stopping once the dog has the bumper in his mouth. I would try and simplify first, if that doesn't work you might just have to push him through the avoidence. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 04/21/2006 3:10 PM |
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"a minimal amount of collar fetch"
I keep coming back to this comment. The purpose of collar fetch is teach the dog to turn off pressure by diving on bumpers and learning to "move quickly or be nicked". Forward momentum is learned as the quick response to the applied pressure. If minimul collar fetch was the standard, the dog probably did not actually learn how to turn off this kind of pressure. Therefore, the nick for motion is confusing because there is no mental connection. The dog is thinking....what do you want me to do? What am I doing wrong?
Originally, FTP begins with the fetch command. Walking collar fetch should have been clear to the dog. Ideally, the transition to FTP should be seamless. A confused dog simply is telling you.......it didn't happen. Even when you know this it still only comes with experience. 
Skipping or slighting a step can have unforseen ramifications down the line (no pun intended). |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 04/21/2006 7:43 PM |
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Posted By KwickLabs on 04/21/2006 3:10 PM Therefore, the nick for motion is confusing because there is no mental connection. The dog is thinking....what do you want me to do? What am I doing wrong?
Right on the money.  I couldn't agree more (at least for 99% of the dogs I've seen). . |
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas
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| 04/22/2006 11:47 AM |
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| Kwick I am not sure if you are talking about my post or not, but this is why I believe that it is necessary to nick while the dog is in motion. During FTP you are teaching a dog to turn off the pressure by running to the bumpers and fetching, not just to leave your side. IF you weren't writing about my post fine, I just was making sure my post was clear. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 04/22/2006 2:38 PM |
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| No Matt, I was just focusing on LuckyNash's comment. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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LuckyNash
Brigham, Utah
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| 05/22/2006 9:49 AM |
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I thought that I would post an update to this post in case someone has had the same problem that I was facing on the FTP sequence and the steps that I took to remedy the problem.
I reviewed the stick fetch and collar fetch. Also, each day before the FTP drill I would toss two or three bumpers out and do a short mini session of walking collar fetch to get him in the right frame of mind.
Then I put him in a remote sit and cast him to the back pile using stick pressure. The momentum really picked up and he understood the pressure and soon figured out how to beat the stick. I mean he is really hauling now. I then replaced the stick pressure with collar pressure with him in a remote sit and would “nick” him just as he would start to turn after the back cast and then again at half way. The momentum is sound and I have the speed that I was looking for… and he understands the pressure.
Thanks for all the suggestions and advice.
Matt
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