stuw
North Central Minnesota
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| 03/20/2006 5:34 AM |
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I've been working with my pup alot lately using the Retrieve R Trainer....oh how she loves that thing...
At first I was having alot of trouble with her breaking at the line...till Kwick and Hooligan told me about the "tab"....the 10" leash that puts me back in control..while I'm using the trainer..
Ellie is like she's spring loaded....I bring her to the line...either on a place board...or lately just moving around to different spots in the yard.....command "heel"...and she sucks up right next to my leg....her butt never touches the ground.....its always about an inch off the ground.....her back is straight as an arrow....and she's leaning as far forward as she can with out falling on her face...she is as intense as can be...
I noticed a few days ago...that every now and then...she would be watching the dummy on the trainer..and not looking forward....anticipating the shot...not the fall....I found my self saying things like "get ready".....or just "ready"...and when she would refocus forward...I would fire the dummy.....
Yesterday....I did a test...brought her to the line...and waited till she got fidgetty....I said "ready"...and she was all business....looking straight forward watching the sky....waiting for the shot...the fall...and then the retrieve.....I repeated this many more times....it worked great...
I trained her by accident to focus...and be steady....with a command I'm not sure I should be using.....
The more I thought about it...or justified it in my own mind....I decided it wasnt a bad thing....visions of sitting in a duck blind with some buddies...and one says "mallard from the right....get ready"....and my dogs then scanning the sky with anticipation....or lining up in a pheasant field...and some one says before we start..."everyone ready"....and again my dogs is focused and ready to hunt...
Like I said...I'm not sure I should be doing this...I've never read about it anywhere.....but sometimes even us rookie trainers stumble across something that works... |
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Lab Guy
St. Paul, MN
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| 03/20/2006 6:35 AM |
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Hey Stu,
Glad to hear things are going good for you and Ellie. I'm far from an expert but I like the concept of being in the duck blind and having a command that helps to focus the dog and even settling her down a bit before the action starts.
On a different note, its only been 2 weeks that Scout has been at David's and it seems like an eternity. She has had lots of bird exposure this week and is pointing nice and really liking the birds. He is going to be starting the force part of force fetch this week. Only three weeks till I get time to go visit.
Jay |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/20/2006 6:55 AM |
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Whew, after reading a bit I soon realized that this was not a post about Ellie getting hurt (especially when the training tab was mentioned). 
Two things this brought to mind. I've heard from some trainers the Retrieve-R-Trainer can get a pup use to looking up at it and not looking out. You might have solved this problem. It is also a fact that a young dog will focus on the "mark" command in that they will more instensely seek out the area where a mark might be coming from. Thus, your "ready" takes the place of "mark". 
Also, my suggestion is to make sure that Ellie's marks are not just coming from your Retrieve-R-Trainer.  |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/20/2006 7:45 AM |
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Mark is the command we use in the blind as well. Dog's catch on early that when someone says "mark" ducks have been spotted. Acutally after a season or two the dogs usually spot the ducks or geese well before the hunters do. Numerous times by buddy will say, what is Pi looking at? I turn and after scanning may or may not see ducks in the distance.
She is a heck of a lot better at spotting ducks than I am! And always on the lookout! |
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stuw
North Central Minnesota
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| 03/20/2006 10:33 AM |
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oops Jim....maybe I should have titled this thread.... "training by ignorance"
which is probably a truer statement anyways.....
Unfortunately the retieve-r-trainer and me...are the only marks Ellies going to see untill the middle of april when the HRC Retriever club that I joined opens for spring....I'm really looking forward to training with some other folks...especially ones that actually know what they are doing...
Trout...the guys I hunt with have no idea what "Mark" means in the dog world...If I started saying "Mark".....Mark (one of the guys we hunt with) would allways assume the next bird is his....and we cannt have that now....
Jay....you wont believe how different Scout is going to be in a couple of weeks...you wont even think its your dog....
keep me posted on how she's doing...maybe I'll tag along on your pick up day and maybe shoot one of your pheasants... ...my new pup should be on the ground by then...it would be a good excuse to go visit....
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/20/2006 11:19 AM |
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Maybe you just need to train the guys you hunt with. Took me a while to get use to it as well, previously always just saying coming down or coming in.
"Mark" is kind of the standard for retriever training, though it doesn't matter what command you use as long as the dog knows to start looking. And eventially start looking up.
Didn't you have her with a trainer for a while? If so she may already know the command, if not when you get with the HRC club they will be using it. |
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wdlfbio
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| 03/20/2006 12:29 PM |
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Just make sure you're not training with a guy named Mark. 
Here's a pic of the RTR launchers I build. |
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stuw
North Central Minnesota
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| 03/20/2006 1:50 PM |
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wldlfbio
Those are great....details details details......how do these work etc...etc...etc... |
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wdlfbio
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| 03/20/2006 3:47 PM |
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Don't look at the way the double is set up. The wood base for the triple is easier, and focus on teh right pair of launchers in the lower photo.
Here's the most reliable method. Elesema FM series electronics (2, 3, or 4 channel receiver and FMT 304). 12Vdc mini-siren or horn. 1 12Vdc door lock actuator per launcher.
Each launcher gets 1 ch. The siren/horn gets another channel.
A short piece of rope is attached to the little handle you pull to fire the launcher. Launcher gets put into copper tubing. A slot is cut near the bottom of the tubing to hold a release tab. The release tab is pinned to the door lock actuator. The door lock actuator is wired to the FMR receiver. The shin bone is connected to the thigh bone, etc.
Framing is simple copper and wood. I think I had to use 1" to hold the launcher (cut off the rubber on the handle). You'll need to add some tape around the launcher handles so they fit snuggly in the tubes. So, Take a 1"x 1/2"x 1" T and solder about 7" to one end (1" end). Set the launcher NEXT to the tube and fully extend the firing pin handle). Mark on the pipe where the TOP of the little handle deal is. This is where you'll need to cut a slot for the door lock actuator release tab (I use a piece of 1" flat aluminum, about 1.5" long). The release tab must fit somewhat snuggly in slot in the copper pipe. The actuator holding the tab must also fit snuggly when FULLY extended. These things only pull about 1/2", so if you have slack here, you may not get it pulling out enough to allow the release tab to spring into the firing mechanism. If you make the slot too loose, the vibration from firing launcher A may cause the tab for laucher B to come loose, which gives you a delayed doubled. At the base of the 1" pipe, and below the slot is a nice place to put a 45 degree elbow. This will reduce the number of times you set up the launcher with the string pinched between the tubing and ground. It makes it kinda tough to fire when the rope is pinched tight and not allowed to slide freely.
Then I solder on a length of 1/2" to make the front legs (as you'll see in a second, you may have to bend one of these to fit). About 7", but whatever is right to make a 45 degree angle on the launcher. Connect the right and left tubes.
The wood base can be a 2x6 or 2x8, cut to length. I try to reduce the overall length by reversing the way the door lock actuators sit (see lower photo, right side of launcher). This will also raise the height of one of the tubes, so you may have to bend the 1/2" leg so it meets up with the other one when you connect the two. Then you'll need to screw the tubes into the wood base. I used pipe hanger like fittings before, but the strain of the launchers firing tweaks those outta whack over time. I drill 2 holes wide enough to get a drywall screw head through through the top of each tube (1 near the launcher end, 1 near the tab slot end). Then I drill a smaller hole through the other side. Get the board positioned in place (and hopefully so that the 1/2" pipe (leg) is resting firmly against the 1.5" side of the 2x8). Screw the copper into the board. Try to get the screws as flush as possible so they don't interfere with the firing pin moving in and out of the handle. Then just fit your receiver case, battery and horn wherever you can. The little flag is crimped to an alligator clip. This way I can extend the antenna upward and clip the flagging to it or a bush. The flagging is different for each unit and matches the color of the button on my remote. This way I don't have to remember unit 1 from unit 2, etc. See color, push color. Simple.
Clear as mud?
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 03/20/2006 5:39 PM |
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Posted By KwickLabs on 03/20/2006 4:50 PM
just one dog hardly justifies all this equipment.
Shoot, might as well quit your day job and start training full time...........................add a few more dog boxes and you'll have enough equipment.
Kwick- Thought comes to mind all to often these days!
Wdlfbio- pls - how about a couple good close up pics of various areas
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bubulkaj Moderator
Blue Springs, Missouri
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| 03/20/2006 8:59 PM |
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Wdlfbio, do you think we could get some close up pictures of the release tab and actuator? I just got to make one of these. Way cool.
Joe |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 03/20/2006 10:39 PM |
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While we are bugging you for close ups-how about the part #'s of the items used and sources??
When i 1st looked at this and the winger stuff posted b-4 I wondered how much Mullah is being saved-well I just looked up the
various retrive r trainers and remote launchers on gundogsupply and hmm-they cost some serious $ alright and the remotes are
extra! |
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stuw
North Central Minnesota
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| 03/21/2006 5:31 AM |
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I did some research
Elsema electronics.... www.multicode.comau/products.htm
4 channel reciever FMR204-12QE $61.17
4 channel transmitter FMT 304 $27.56
1 meter long antenna ANTW $00.65
Door lock actuators $ 9.95 ea
Custom Street Design
888 754 2340
I didnt price the horn yet...I'm thinking thats an over the counter item from Radio Shack
What kinda of battery source are you using????
I think the price of the launchers is $65.00 ea....I hope thats right... |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/21/2006 7:20 AM |
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My understanding of using a four channel is to have plenty of channels.
However, unless you are going to build four three shooters, four channel receivers would be overkill (or am I missing something here). One three shooter could get by with four single channel receivers and they are $30 cheaper (or three if you weren't going to use a siren, which isn't much good out past 150 yards and less on a windy day when you set the marks up right (downwind).
Siren cost is $4.50. The car door actuators are usually $5 or less if you do a Google search and the most inexpensive battery cost I found was around $12. (plus shipping on every thing, but there is no tax) |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 03/21/2006 7:39 AM |
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Kwick- I thought the # of channels would refer to the # of output's-thus a 4 ch could control a noise maker and 3 launchers and thus 1 reciever would be
used as oppoes to 3 or 4... |
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wdlfbio
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| 03/21/2006 9:22 AM |
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The RTR launcher kits are $65 (includes bumper and about 50 loads)
Batteries are 12Vdc, .8-1.2 amp hour, usually $10-$13 each.
You'll need a charger/12Vdc power supply, usually $5-$15 each
Each function requires its own channel. Each button on the remote goes to only 1 ch on the receiver. So, if you wanted a triple launcher with sound, you'll need a 4ch receiver and a 4ch remote. If you wanted a double launcher with sound you'll need a 3 ch receiver and the FMT 304 (but you'll have 1 spare ch; maybe for you Mini-winger or bird launcher). If you want 2 double launchers, you'll need a fmt304 and 2 2ch receivers. You won't have the siren/horn option. The siren/horn option isn't too big of a deal if your dawg is already swinging with the gun. The report of the launcher load will be able to pull the dawg around too. I put flags on my bumpers to slow them down and add to their visibility. This helps if the dawg is late in swinging around.
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/21/2006 9:31 AM |
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| Duh!I get it now. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 03/21/2006 10:09 AM |
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Stuw-sounds like she is coming along great! Are you still holding her with the training tab, or is she steady without it now?
I am not sure this would work for you, since you are having her sit (or crouch in her case! Better make her butt hit the ground, or I bet it will cause you problems later-and making her REALLY sit is more steadiness) at "heel"-but you could have her sit and move a few feet away, say ready and launch it. If you can get her to WAIT THERE until you release her, no matter how far away you are, then you can move the launcher somewhere else, and have the dummies come from somewhere other than next to her. Although the remote is probably easier, and keeps you next to your dog... |
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stuw
North Central Minnesota
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| 03/21/2006 10:28 AM |
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Hooligan..
yesterday I tried it with out the tab.....but instead of firing the launcher...which was loaded and ready to go....I fired the blank pistol...theory was...if she did break..she wouldnt get to retrieve the bumper as a reward...when I fired the pistol...she took one step..looked into the sky for the bumper and sat back down...
did this twice...same results...3rd time I fired the launcher...as soon as she saw the bumper in the air..she broke...back to the tab....this may take awhile..."sigh"
about the butt down thing...I've tried everything...so did David...she's a croucher at the line I'm afraid....
wldlfbio...which reciever are you using??? I noticed you can get "kits" which include the 4 channel reciever..and the 4 channel transmiter and the antena for $53.18....plastic case is another $6.50
thats about a $40.00 savings.... |
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