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Subject: Is "Whoa" Breaking Necessary?

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Rainmaker

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06/26/2008 1:44 PM	Alert
Hi all, When I got my dog, I knew she was a PL, but I wasn't sure on how to whoa train. Actually, I didn't know how to train at all. So as I got in to it, I realized that retriever skills were more important to me, so I had better start learning how to train a good solid retriever. As time progressed and we both got better at what we were trying to accomplish as far as retrieving was concerned, we went out to North Dakota. While we were out hunting grouse and roosters I actaully saw her learn as she was hunting. From the first day to the last, she got better and better at locating, working and pointing birds. By the end of the trip she was holding point for as long as it took for us to catch up. She had learned that rushing in on wild birds got her nothing in return. No gunfire, no retrieve, no good dog. So here is a case of a dog receiving no formal whoa training, just what could be taught by nature, and pointing naturally. Is there a need to put her up on a barrel, or use any other method to help perpetuate the point? I'm of the belief that if it aint broke, but I've also skipped steps in training that have come back to haunt me. I've since hunted her with other PL's and she has no problem backing either. She doesn't like hunting with flushers for obvious reasons, so I don't do that anymore. But is not shooting flushed birds enough to continue to perpetuate the point? It almost feels like cheating have dog smarter than you that just kinda learns on it's own. Chris

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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06/26/2008 2:34 PM	Alert
There are different ways to do it! You dont have to hang a dog on a barrel to WHOA break it! In Julies book she shows a way to WHOA a dog, Jere has a way to WHOA a dog silent, It is good IMO to have it to stop a dog, Highways, roads, getting hit,etc. The more the dog is exposed to birds the more those birds will teach the dog,Pointing to close rushing in and not working with you! I teach it to my dogs, I can put Satin in a bird pin, and she will stand there forever! Plus a Steady dog out hunting is a great thing to have!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH CPR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

OD

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06/26/2008 10:09 PM	Alert
Chris, I would have to argue that your formal teaching has started and by the best teacher of all , the birds. A question to ask is what is the purpose of whoaing a dog in the first place. There will be several different opinions. I have one as well. My goal for having a dog whoa is to not move and remain steady after they have located and are pointing the bird. That is my primary goal. The method that gets me there the quickest and burns the concept into the dogs gray matter well is on birds. I rarely whoa without a bird in front of the dog. No boards, no barrels. My secondary goal is for them to be steady to wing and shot. I also accomplish that using a bird and a starter pistol. One suggestion I have is to teach whoa indirectly in the field while your hunting. I can explain if your interested. Gary PRG

Jere

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06/27/2008 12:27 AM	Alert
Posted By Rainmaker on 06/26/2008 1:44 PM ... 1. So here is a case of a dog receiving no formal whoa training, just what could be taught by nature, and pointing naturally. Is there a need to put her up on a barrel, or use any other method to help perpetuate the point? ... 2. But is not shooting flushed birds enough to continue to perpetuate the point? It almost feels like cheating have dog smarter than you that just kinda learns on it's own. Chris 1. IMO, no. 2. IMO, maybe. Kevin is correct, in principle we train a silent "Whoa." There's much more to the system than that, however. We do not (usually) use it (the silent whoa) to directly "perpetuate" the point. Yes, it is used when the dog does something wrong on birds - that is bumps the bird into flight. That's when the correction comes. Just as the escape of the bird is a correction, so too is stopping the dog with check cord or ecollar as the bird takes flight. It is also used "indirectly" to establish all the "steadies" by layering natural occurances such as the sight of another dog standing or pointing, the sound of a gunshot, the sight of a bird falling, the wild flush of a bird onto the silent "whoa" command just as most of us "layer" the single sharp whistle blast onto the verbal "sit" to make the two commands equivalent. On birds we like to give the dog the freedom to work birds which are moving, may have relocated, which may not have been precisely located in the first place etc. Since we are humans we are not equipped to know what the actual status of the bird is at all times (if using birds capable of moving), so we count on the dog to solve those problems. Demanding that the dog stay fixed in one spot until released after it first establishes point also prevents the dog from exercising its intelligence and, IMO, confuses the dog when the bird runs out and dog loses scent or contact with the bird. The dog "should" point when it has a certain knowledge of the location of the bird and should move to reestablish that contact if it is lost. Much more about this method is on the "other" site at: http://www.pointinglabforum.com/build/objects/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1614 There is a bunch of information archived at the training forum on the uplandbirddog.com site and The group at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pointingdogs/ has several profession trainers and skilled amateurs visiting regularly to discuss and answer questions in addition to several "papers" archived in the "Files" folder. Jere

staunch

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06/27/2008 9:58 AM	Alert
One suggestion I have is to teach whoa indirectly in the field while your hunting. I can explain if your interested. Gary PRG Explain away OD..........always interrested in learning something new Staunch

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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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06/27/2008 3:23 PM	Alert
Whoa shouldn't be used to "perpetuate point", I do think it is a useful command. Whoa is to pointers what sit is to retrievers. A great thing to be taught, but needs to be used and taught appropriately. I can explain in more detail if interested, and when I have more time. Once you use whoa to take away the chase (not extend the point) you have started your dog on his way to being broke. You never need to say whoa while a dog is on point.

Rainmaker

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06/30/2008 11:25 AM	Alert
Now I'm confused. You never say whoa when the dog is on point? When is the command used then? I think I need a better explanation of what the whole process is for perpetuating point, and when to give the specific cues. Anyone interested in schooling me a bit? Chris

oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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06/30/2008 12:44 PM	Alert
I don't think a person has to say it around birds. Some dogs I will whoa a little around birds, other dogs I don't. Once a dog is broke you shouldn't have to say anything to them. They should be broke in sight of handler, or out of sight. If you have trained your dog to stand only when you say whoa then that doesn't work very well. Once a dog of mine has gone through the yard work and back into the bird field I will flank collar the dog, let them go out and point birds, when the bird comes up I say whoa and nick them around their belly. They stop, I go pet the dog, and then release the dog to go the next bird. What you are teaching a dog is that they are no longer allowed to chase birds, so the fun of flushing them for themselves has been taken away. Pretty soon you get to the point that you can go in front of the dog and flush the brid, if the dog walks with you just tap em on the belly collar. Flush the bird shoot it, and make the dog stand. By this time a dog needs to have been on a lot of birds, had the full formal yard work accomplished, and been whoa'd in the yard with fly away pigeons. OF course I just went through 3 months of work in 5 terribly written sentences If it doesn't make sense give me a call 620-386-0989

Jere

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06/30/2008 2:08 PM	Alert
IMO, Folks use "whoa" to stop the dog. Some do this "for safety" - keep the dog out of traffic, off porcupines, snakes, etc; but this doesn't work when the dog is getting into trouble and not in sight. So, folks who rely on "whoa,” say to keep a dog out of traffic on a road, may well eventually learn the hard way that there may be another, more effective, approach. Others, especially in the versatile dog world also use whoa as retriever trainers use sit - as a control command for use in handling the dog on blind retrieves. They call these "directed retrieves." Dogs that have high natural pointing instinct can go through pretty rigorous "whoa" training and come out of it eventually doing OK as pointing dogs - as long as the handler leaves the dog alone to do its job. They may, however, depending on the nature of the training come out deficient in self-relocation and displaying a higher percentage of false points or pointing old scent. Dogs with low natural point, rigorously trained a "whoa" which is then used in developing manners on birds (say to "perpetuate the point" or, in some programs, to initiate "point"), are likely to end up "whoa pointing" or, as some of us say "standing game." Their "point" is a trained behavior rather than a solid natural point. Depending on how this is done and the force used the dog may well point with little intensity, horrible style with wagging tail and head swinging so the dog can keep track of the handler visually. Did you read the material at the link to the "other site" I provided above? Dogs trained that way, even dogs with rather low natural point but high "prey drive" end up pointing intensely and as stylishly as their inheritance allows. They are steady and reliable "over-the-hill," self-relocate on moving birds and seldom have a false point. However, and this may be true no matter the method used, if the balance between the level of natural point and the level of natural "chase" (maybe prey drive works here) is tilted too far towards "chase," maintenance of steadiness could be a continual issue for such dogs - may require at least annual “tune-up.” The method, being "silent," is slanted towards conditioning the dog's responses to natural stimuli (natural commands, if you like) commonly encountered in the field rather than to commands from the handler as methods that rely heavily on the verbal "whoa" are. It is, of course, these natural stimulus/response pairs that make a bird dog rather than the trained behaviors of the well controlled and obedient dog. Dogs with both low natural point and low "prey drive" just about have to be trained with a "whoa" if the owner wants them to indicate the presence of game by standing. After the "whoa" is solidly trained, the scent or sight of a bird is layered onto the verbal whoa in a manner similar to the way we layer the sound of whistle onto the verbal sit to train a retriever to respond to either by sitting. IMO, this is a waste of time. A dog with such deficient instincts will never be more than a shadow of a real bird dog and the owner would be better off getting a more promising prospect. Jere

Rainmaker

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07/01/2008 3:59 PM	Alert
Thanks for all of the replys guys. I think I just caught a break and got a good dog. If Rain didn't point I'd be fine with it, but since she does, I just want to make sure I don't screw her up. So going forward, the best thing to do is let flushed birds fly, and ...... anything else? Chris

Jere

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07/01/2008 4:21 PM	Alert
Maybe nothing else - depends on what level of manners you want and how she evolves from here on out. If you want steady to wing, shot and fall (and a well trained multi-purpose retriever 'should" be), you may need to do something else. If her backing other dogs' points deteriorates and such is important to you and the folks you hunt with, you may need to do something else. If the frequency of her purposefully flushing birds when you are not in gunrange increases (I prefer to flush the birds myself in most situations and consider a dog initiated flush a fault), you WILL have to do something else. Enjoy the dog. jere

Rainmaker

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07/02/2008 11:51 AM	Alert
I did read the links you posted Jere, thanks. My plan will be to continue working on steady to shot, and keep my eye on any rise in the level of flushes. Thanks again for the info. Chris

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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07/02/2008 9:03 PM	Alert
I whoa trained Casey according to the "old" Knutson book. I have never once used it. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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07/04/2008 8:20 AM	Alert
Posted By Doc_E on 07/02/2008 9:03 PM I whoa trained Casey according to the "old" Knutson book. I have never once used it. . Doc, what method and or command did you use to break him to wing and shot?

¶r²

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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07/12/2008 7:12 AM	Alert
Posted By Trout Bum on 07/04/2008 8:20 AM DIV> Doc, what method and or command did you use to break him to wing and shot? Initially (4 times), I used a SIT whistle and a strong ecollar nick as soon as the bird was flushed. I only had to do this twice on each of two consecutive weekends and he was steady. So, I quit using the SIT whistle at that time and he would just remain standing at the flush/shot/fall. So now, if I were to blow a SIT whistle on the flush, he would sit, but if I don't hit the whistle, he stands. I started his "SIT to Shot" training very early in his life. Verbal SIT until 100%. Then linking verbal sit to whistle Sit and then linking SIT to Shot to both verbal and whistle SIT. He was pretty young (? maybe 3 or 3.5 months ?) when he learned to SIT to the sound of a Shot. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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07/12/2008 11:49 AM	Alert
Thanks Doc, interesting method. Some dogs are easier to break than others. I suspect the early sit to shot sped things up a bit. Does Casey back naturally or did you use a similar method to teach him to back?

¶r²

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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07/12/2008 12:16 PM	Alert
He "kinda" backs naturally. ie He will see the other dog on point and he will take a couple steps in order to be looking in the same direction as the dog on point -- then he will lock. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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07/18/2008 8:22 AM	Alert
Last winter I took Daisy and Gunny to an obedience class put on Forest City Kennel Club. I routinely "whoa" my dogs "in the yard" as more of an OB "thing". Remote sits for extended periods are a good thing for a retriever. Whoa is just another way of teaching the dog to "not move". Not moving standing is useful 1) at the vet's, 2) when grooming, 3) when trying to work with a paw (sometimes) and 4) when going through a bitch check at a hunt test........to name a few. I like to be able to teach my dogs that they don't have to be moving all the time and standing still is not that big of a deal........in fact it is good to see them bored once it awhile. It's good for a dog to learn how to avoid getting swept up in distractions. Frankly, if I say "whoa" to Taffey after she is on point, I don't think it registers. It is very difficult to get her to sit....because her mind is so occupied with the point. If I really put a lot of effort into her to sit on a point the point itself has to break down first......which is not a very good idea. However, "whoa" is something I teach all my dogs.....even Kooly who points only on rare occasions. Here's some pictures from about a week ago when we were doing a review......five minute remote whoa. (The end of the rope is on the ground.)

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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07/18/2008 8:25 AM	Alert
All four get kind of bored after a few minutes. Kooly is never thrilled with anything that "smacks" of a drill.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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07/18/2008 9:05 AM	Alert
I never really understood the whole "whoa" thing. What I knew about was from pointers-and I was very concerned that would create a dog who was "standing game". I did, however, want a way to steady my dog when it came time to flush the birds. I used "wait" during the last hunting season, which means don't go until I say you can, usually used for not proceeding me out the door. Using "wait" on birds did work, usually-but also sometimes resulted in a sit to flush-which is ok, but not my preference for my dog. At the Supermodel's Seminar, I learned that "whoa" as she teaches it is the command I need-"don't move your feet". So, we're working on it...

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

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