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Subject: Dog wont give or release

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Huntin_Fool01
Oldham, South Dakota

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04/01/2008 2:27 PM	Alert
My male, Gunner, is a great retriever. Once he picks up the downed bird he never drops it or sits it down. He does what he is suppost to, he brings it back to me and sits on my left but he has a habbit of not wanting to give the bird up. he will try and turn his head away and a lot of the time i gotta force him to release it. Has anyone else had this problem or anything close to it and if so can you give me some ideas? thanks!!

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/01/2008 8:34 PM	Alert
Very simple fix. Just lift up on the flap of skin in front of his thigh (between thigh and belly) -- at the same time give your DROP command. As soon as you lift on the skin flap, the bird will be spit out right in your hand. It usually only takes a few times of this to ingrain the command. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Huntin_Fool01
Oldham, South Dakota

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04/02/2008 8:04 PM	Alert
thanks ill try that

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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04/04/2008 12:05 PM	Alert
This didn't work for me. In order for my pup to let go of what was in his mouth, I had to "lift up" on the skin there with some vigor-and while the pup spit out what he was holding, he swung around fast to see why I was pulling that skin-never got bit, but I could see that happening with a dog with a different temperment than mine-it was a pretty strong reaction. He never made the association with dropping what he had with the "skin lift". I let him have it when he came back for a little bit-praised him while it was in his mouth-and he would let me have it to throw again after doing that several times.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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04/07/2008 9:47 AM	Alert
If the dog doesn't repond well to the skin flap method, some people will blow in the dogs nose. I do the skin flap method and it does work great, however some dogs are quick to turn around a bite at your hand. I always reach around the opposite side of the dog, this way your face isn't down where he will be swinging his head.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/09/2008 5:37 PM	Alert
Fool So did you try the skin flap method? If so, how did it work? .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Huntin_Fool01
Oldham, South Dakota

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04/17/2008 2:59 PM	Alert
YA I DID. WORKS GREAT. HES GETTING BETTER ABOUT GIVING ME THE DUMMIES AND BIRDS. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/17/2008 8:14 PM	Alert
Cool. (now hit your Caps Lock key ) .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Huntin_Fool01
Oldham, South Dakota

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04/27/2008 12:31 PM	Alert
been working on him a lot with water work and hes come along way with giving me the dummies and birds. he lets go as soon as i grab them now without me saying anything. thanks for the tip. it was a great help.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/27/2008 2:58 PM	Alert
Posted By Huntin_Fool01 on 04/27/2008 12:31 PM he lets go as soon as i grab them now without me saying anything. BAD idea ! You DO NOT want the dog to drop the bird as soon as your hand touches it. You should be able to take ahold of the bird for a few seconds while the dog continues to hold the bird. The dog should not drop the bird UNTIL given the "GIVE" command. There are a few reasons for this, but an example is that the dog will anticipate your movement and will drop the bird before you have a good grip of it. This is a very bad thing. What training program (book - tape) are you following? .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Huntin_Fool01
Oldham, South Dakota

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04/27/2008 3:21 PM	Alert
not really following anything for guidelines. he does good about holding it until i tell him to "give", atleast he doesnt fight it anymore. but he starts to give it to as soon as i grab it the more we work. i think its because hes getting to wound up and wants me to throw it again for him. so i think i need to start making him sit and relax a bit before i take it from him so he will slow down and do things right.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/27/2008 3:55 PM	Alert
Posted By Huntin_Fool01 on 04/27/2008 3:21 PM not really following anything for guidelines. div> I could tell -- that's why I asked the question. If you want your dog to be all that it can be, you need to be following a training program (particularly true if you have not trained a few dogs in the past). Training needs to be sequential. Training needs to be done correctly, and you can't do this without a training program. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

DWestphal

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05/01/2008 7:18 PM	Alert
HF- I think that your dog does have to know what the command for a release is be it drop, give or whatever. It's a command and he has to know what it means. BUT...I was always of the school of thought that I needed to give a command as well upon release until I watched Dave Rorems handling DVD. He said somethings that I hadn't really given much thought of and after hearing it, it made perfect sense. "Simplify your commands down so your using more non verbal ques then verbal ques, so when you do use a verbal que it means something". Then during an example, he reaches down and takes a duck from a dogs mouth w/out saying a word (similar to what your doing). He realized he'd done that and quickly adds, "..I didn't say drop I didn't say give, I usually don't say anything unless the dog gives me a reason to use the command. Try to save your commands until when you need them." So provided that your dog knows what drop or give means, and yet you choose to "save" that command until you see Fido sticking on a bird, then I don't see any problem with that.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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05/01/2008 8:05 PM	Alert
Posted By DWestphal on 05/01/2008 7:18 PM until I watched Dave Rorems handling DVD. "..........he reaches down and takes a duck from a dogs mouth w/out saying a word (similar to what your doing). He realized he'd done that and quickly adds, "..I didn't say drop I didn't say give, I usually don't say anything unless the dog gives me a reason to use the command." I'm sure that Rorem knows 99.5% more about dog training than I do --- but I do have that .5% that he doesn't. I've seen far too many dogs that anticipate the hand coming toward the bird and will drop the bird before the handler has an adequate grip on the bird. When Casey is holding a bird, I can take ahold of the bird for any amount of time and he won't "give" until commanded. . . . . . . PRECISELY what was done during FF. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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05/01/2008 10:02 PM	Alert
Awhile back I bought a book called "Training Retrievers for Field Trials, Hunt Tests and Hunting". It was edited by Bill Hillmann....who along with his wife are two of the most prominent trainers of young Labrador retrievers. Their specialty is Derby dogs. The book is a "collection" of specific advice on the whole range of training retrievers "from 50 of the best trainers in history." After "wading" through several chapters of short paragraphs containing specific advice, it became apparant these top trainers don't do the exact same things and disagree on more than you might think. One thing I have trained all my Labs to do is something called the "remote drop". It is one of Mike Lardy's techniques....along with probably many others. After all, there are trainers who follow his program which came from techniques developed by Rex Carr. After reading this thread for quite some time I noticed a reference to the fact a well known trainer says there is no reason to waste a command by asking the dog to "drop". For his program one would have to do the entire sequence of steps leading up to using a non-verbal delivery. Most seem to think it is OK to take ideas out of context.....and expect the dog to just do it. If one is regularly following that trainer's "program" it might fit in. However, if you are using another program, it more than likely will not. Which is related to the "pitfalls" of mixing and matching different programs. Today my three older Labs ran some cold blinds with ducks. Each is well versed in the remote drop technique (which requires a verbal command). They are high prey drive retrievers and control can be an issue. It must be dealt with regularly. At times they have had a tendency to think the bird is their's. Therefore, I have a very specific standard that is repeated in training. The dogs know.....sit, keep my mouth from "getting busy" on the bird, wait patiently while the handler slowly takes a hold of a wing or foot, when the "drop" command is heard I let the bird fall out of my mouth, the duck will remain hanging there until it is slowly lifted away and my head does not move with the disappearing duck. Any deviation in any step is met with a "sit/stick/sit" correction or a sharp "sit/snap/sit" on the choker tab.....indirect pressure. The eleven month old pup ran marks yesterday with ducks. He understands the expectations and has no problem with the verbal "drop" at the end of a retrieve. The routine is well defined. I don't think my dogs are overwhelmed by this extra verbal command. In fact just the opposite......it provides a connection with the trainer which promotes team work. Rather than having to decide if the trainer really has a hold of the bird, the dog knows he does from the "drop" cue. A predictable routine is always better than a good guess.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

DWestphal

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05/02/2008 4:41 AM	Alert
Jim- that's a great post and I'm not going to disagree with anything that you said. A lot does involve the particular program that you choose to follow and from reading HF's previous posts, it sounds like he and his dog are new enough that they should get on one and follow it through completion. But I also believe that as the dog matures and the concepts are solidified that there's no need to continually give commands to the dog unless that dog gives you a reason to do so. For example, push/pull. At some point that dog is going to learn to swing with the gun and there will be no need for you to give a here or heel to get him to swing with you. But that time he doesn't come off a flyer, you definietly need that command in your arsenal in order to get compliance. Is HF at that point yet...doubtful, but when he is this is certianly a viable option for him. And Doc, if you add a couple 0's between the . and 5%, you may get me to entertain that theory.

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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05/02/2008 6:24 AM	Alert
I understand what you are saying. For example, the only verbal commands I give in marking drills for Taffey, Kooly or Daisy.....are their "name" (as the release) and a quiet "drop" to finish the delivery. There is no need to give the "come in" trill with the whistle or say "here", "heel" or "sit". A subtle hand cue tells them which side to do all that "stuff" on. Continuous repetition in training makes it an automatic habit which does not need verbals.....not unlike "riding a bike". All my dogs are two-sided, so there has to be some sort of visual cue as to which side to finish on. The pup is still in the "all verbal plus visual" commands stage. The reason "drop" remains a verbal is based on their high drive tendencies and provides the maintenance I feel is necessary. As for having the other verbals "handy" to use, there have been many times with a young dog, the whistle trill is needed to give relief from any distractions or losing their orientation. Another case for needing the whistle occurs when any dog picks up a bird and a wing obscures their vision. Most retriever training is based on learning how to anticipate and having tools in place to deal with what you see in the moment.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

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