Drake Creek
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| 03/02/2008 11:03 PM |
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| At what point do you start to whoa break a lab?Later in their training or during transition?Also do most of you teach them to back another dog.One of my females is a natural pointer she will be 3yrs old this month is she too old to whoa break?
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tigerliberty
Dundee Michigan
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| 03/03/2008 9:25 AM |
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| When its nuts over birds. |
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Jere
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| 03/03/2008 12:46 PM |
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I don't - leastwise not in the traditional sense. I use a "silent whoa" for developing manners on birds including stop to wild flush; steady to wing, shot and fall; and backing - if necessary.
I start after the dog has had enough free exposure to wild birds that it is pointing (at least flash pointing) on its own. I suppose, if I had to, I'd use well flight conditioned game birds, probably quail, flown into cover rather than wild birds.
What do you wish to accomplish with "whoa breaking?"
Three years is not too old to learn.
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tigerliberty
Dundee Michigan
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| 03/03/2008 3:20 PM |
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Posted By Jere on 03/03/2008 12:46 PM
I don't - leastwise not in the traditional sense. I use a "silent whoa" for developing manners on birds including stop to wild flush; steady to wing, shot and fall; and backing - if necessary.
I start after the dog has had enough free exposure to wild birds that it is pointing (at least flash pointing) on its own. I suppose, if I had to, I'd use well flight conditioned game birds, probably quail, flown into cover rather than wild birds.
What do you wish to accomplish with "whoa breaking?"
Three years is not too old to learn.
Jere
I assume he wish's to accomplish everything you listed by "Whoa Breaking"... you know the same thing you wish to do with your methods.
More then one way to skin a cat you know.
When the dog is young I employ bump and run tactics to buid drive, as the light switch turns on I start controlling the birds (not the dog) when the point starts to develop, I break to the flush(man flushs bird dog remains staunch). This is done in the dogs first year.
If a dog comes in for training that is older has an acceptable level of birdiness i go straight to controlling the bird with launchers or loose set strong flying birds. Again once the point shows I break to the flush. Now if a dog comes in with no prey drive or very little my goal is prey drive not steadiness point becomes secondary or a non factor. Hence my original comment "when its nuts over birds" no age limit. |
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HRK's Liberators Outlaw Jesse James
HRK's CPR Rooster Smasher
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Drake Creek
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| 03/03/2008 11:41 PM |
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| Jere I would like to hunt her with my buddies pointers.Most of the time she will hold point until I go in and kick up the bird but I also want her to honor another dogs point.Thanks for the replies |
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Jere
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| 03/04/2008 1:56 PM |
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Drake Creek, Is it correct to assume her pointing behavior is entirely natural at this time - you've done no training to develop it? If you did do some training, could you briefly describe the process you used?
Have you hunted her with any other pointing dogs? It is possible she might naturally honor another dog's point?
If you want more input after answering those questions, I may be able to give a response taylored to the dog's history and prior training - assuming, of course, wandering away from your original question ("When ...?" ) might interest you.
Basically, when a dog needs to be trained to honor another dog's point most folks will teach the dog that when it sees another dog on point it is to stop and stand.
Many preceed this with training the dog to stop and stand when it hears a verbal "whoa." I assume this is what you mean by "whoa breaking." Then the dog is presented with an opportunity to see another dog standing or pointing (or see a painted plywood dog standing - some use remote controlled popups) and when it does the verbal command is given. After sufficient repititions the dog will stop and stand when it sees another dog or copy standing without hearing the verbal "whoa." This process is similar to that most of us use to make a single whistle blast equivalent to the verbal "sit." The process is called "layering."
The process I mentioned in my first post teaches the dog that all those cues, the flush of a bird - wild flush or off a point, the sight of another dog standing, a gunshot, a killed bird falling from the sky; (as well as slight vibrating input to the collar with a checkcord or, later in training, very light ecollar input) mean stop and stand. This is done every day the dog is worked on manners on birds, starting with the first and onward, to the extent it is possible to arrange for the dog to experience each of the different situation.
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Jere
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| 03/04/2008 2:13 PM |
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Posted By tigerliberty on 03/03/2008 3:20 PM
I assume he wish's to accomplish everything you listed by "Whoa Breaking"... you know the same thing you wish to do with your methods. More then one way to skin a cat you know.
Of course, cats may be skinned by several techniques. I'd be happy to refer folks to a lengthy post on the subject, in fact.
Do you have a "bone to pick" with me? If not, what was that all about?
Jere
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Top Dog Kennels
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| 03/04/2008 3:08 PM |
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Jere,
Have you been skinning cats??  |
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"Gettin' Straight To the Point" |
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tigerliberty
Dundee Michigan
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| 03/04/2008 4:20 PM |
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Now why would I have a "bone to pick" about "how to skin a cat"with you.
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1.5xGMPR HRCH TigerofCattailCorky
CPR Liberty and Justice for All- "Libby"
The Young Gun's
HRK's Liberators Outlaw Jesse James
HRK's CPR Rooster Smasher
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Drake Creek
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| 03/04/2008 6:19 PM |
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| Jere I have not hunted her with another dog because I assume she will not honor another dog and go in and bust the birds.As far as training her for pointing or for hunting upland birds I did no training for that.We just took her to the preserve and the first bird she came across she pointed and as we hunted more she started holding point longer and longer.She has been trained for waterfowl hunting.Thanks very much for the replies |
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Drake Creek
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| 03/04/2008 6:19 PM |
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| Jere I have not hunted her with another dog because I assume she will not honor another dog and go in and bust the birds.As far as training her for pointing or for hunting upland birds I did no training for that.We just took her to the preserve and the first bird she came across she pointed and as we hunted more she started holding point longer and longer.She has been trained for waterfowl hunting.Thanks very much for the replies |
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Jere
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| 03/04/2008 7:03 PM |
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LeRoy, not recently; but I have skinned a few in the past. Most were bigger cats than a house cat, lynx specifically. The last was a bobcat in AZ. If I see a house cat around here I'll send the dogs to tree it and ship the skin to you if you want.
tigerliberty, I don't know why you'd have a bone to pick with me at all, that's why I asked. To me, the tone of the quoted paragraph suggested you might.
Actually, many people I know that train a verbal "whoa" do so to use it as a control command for use in situations where stopping the dog might avert physical consequences for the dog or, more effectively, for control during what we call blind retrieves. (The v-dog folks call the exercise "directed retrieves.") Personally, I believe the safety value of the "whoa" is blown out of proportion to the reality for several reasons, but it makes some folks feel comfortable to think of it that way.
Drake Creek, I'd suggest you try her out. She may pleasantly surprise you and save a lot of effert on your part.
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Top Dog Kennels
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| 03/04/2008 9:03 PM |
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| I'll pass on the cat skin |
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"Gettin' Straight To the Point" |
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Drake Creek
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| 03/05/2008 12:20 AM |
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| Thanks Jere I will try her with another dog. |
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