Bear
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| 02/29/2008 12:31 PM |
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| Hello everyone. I recently joined. I have been reading your questions and answers for the last couple of months. I have learned alot and enjoyed the spirited debates. I have a 22 month old lab named Jack.
The problem I am having is his mouth.When he retrieves a bumper(especially the plastic white ones) everything is good until he gets within five feet of me.Then he starts to roll it, hold it at the end and generally play with it.He will then sit in front or at heel and hold it fine once I readjust it.
I have followed no certain training program.I took pieces from all the books I read predominantly the Richard Wolter series. I know now that was not a smart move.
I attended the Rilleyville test and watched all the dogs work, it was a wonderful time. Everyone was terrific and the dogs were great. I also bought Julie Knutson's book and started following her steps.I worked obedience then continued with the force fetch steps. We finshed the force fetch at the end of December then Jack severed tendons in his rear leg(ran into an old dump).The vet had him quiet for the month of January and in February just small walks. I have worked on obedience and collar conditioning here at the end of February.
This brings us current and the problems I am having.
Sorry for being long winded. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
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Ruby's pal
SW Oregon
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| 02/29/2008 1:02 PM |
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Does the same thing happen with birds?
If not, then you have to decide how this comes into your long term goals and make your decision on that aspect.
Maybe someone who has successfully worked through this will speak up.
Pat
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Lord may I be half the man that my dogs think that I am! |
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 02/29/2008 7:35 PM |
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How long did it take you to (start to finish -- Hold thru Ear Pinch) with FF?
And how far did you go with FF -- Just ear pinch? Walking Fetch? Fetch/No Fetch? Force to pile? Water Force? Etc etc?
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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Bear
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| 03/01/2008 12:53 PM |
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| Did FF for 4 wks. Ended with ear pinch / forcing to ground - then did a walking fetch for 3 days. That is when Jack got hurt.
Have not had him on birds since Oct.
Any other thoughts?
Thanks.
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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas
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| 03/01/2008 1:04 PM |
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| just stop allowing sloppy holds. i don't know how far you are with your FF, or even if you did one. If it is important to you to have clean retrieves you might want to find a pro to help you through FF. Or find a book that describes the process in a detailed manner and follow it the best you can. |
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/01/2008 4:44 PM |
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I'd try to anticipate when he is going to start mouthing it and give the hold command. Reinforce with an ear pinch and a slap under the chin, treating just like a refusal.
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¶r² |
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 03/01/2008 5:32 PM |
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Re-vsit HOLD & FF.
It shouldn't take very long to get back to where it should be.
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 03/01/2008 6:21 PM |
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| What Troutbum said!! |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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bakerm12
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| 03/03/2008 1:47 PM |
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| How about a young pup 14 weeks old, that basically has lock jaw on birds and prefers not to bring them back? She is very protective over toys at home too. |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 03/03/2008 2:17 PM |
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| bakerm12 Relax and have fun with her!! She is a pup, let her be a pup! Dont get excited if she doesnt bring the bird staight back she is having fun! What you can do is put a 30 ft lead on her when she is doing some marks, then all you have to do is step on the rope! Another way is when she grabs the bird turn and walk back away from her as you are saying hey hey hey pup pup pup here, and maybe clap your hands and always be excited!!! The lock jaw part is she has a trophy in here mouth!! Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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Bear
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| 03/05/2008 7:12 AM |
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| I will put him through Hold & FF again. It is hard to anticipate and correct at the moment because he starts to play with the bumper five feet from me.On treating it like a refusal, I have to wait until he is in front of me. Is that ok?
I am happy that he brings the bumper back to me but I am worried if I do not expect a clean retrieve, he will start to take liberties else where.
Thanks |
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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO
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| 03/05/2008 7:39 AM |
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| Bear, it's clear you need to re-visit FF.....you know you can give him a hold command when he's 10ft away from you? You don't have to wait until he gets in front of you to treat like a refusal, get to him and quickly. Plus if he doesn't start to play with it until he's 5ft away, there shouldn't be a whole lot of waiting time involved. |
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¶r² |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/05/2008 11:45 AM |
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Have you had any thoughts as to why mouthing starts when closer?
Nervous mouthing of the bumper is a manifestation of anxiety. Handler influence is a function of distance. Simply stated.....it is possible the dog perceives you as a source of anxiety. What if attempts to "make it go away" add to the present reasons for mouthing?
A dog needs to be relaxed at the line. What can you do to reduce anxiety?
Here's a way to deal with this.
1) Work without a bumper and the dog at a remote sit on a 6' leash. Sit for calmness and quietly do the swing heel to sit motion. Repeat for effect for several days. I would not do any marking for awhile.....be low key and quiet with very calm praise. This is deprogramming therapy for you and the dog. Be upbeat and happy! However, be consistent and precise.
2) When this gets easy and relaxed add a bumper to the routine. This will be similar to a proofing of hold preceeding FF. The dog does all the remote sit and heel to delivery of a bumper in a quiet calm manner. There is no e-collar applications, but gentle taps and quiding with a heeling stick are not unreasonable. Rub the heeling stick across the dogs back and condition the dog to its presence. Do not strike the dog and always keep a low profile on pressure. Be consistent. The dog needs to see a different you, but not see you as a pushover.
3) Once this is going well, put the dog on a 26' Flexi-lead and toss the bumper out in front farther than what was possible with the 6' lead. Continue the calm, slow approach in taking the bumper. Keep the numbers low (5-6 max) and strive for quality. Try to get the dog to gently drop the bumper into your hand held below the jaw of the dog. Any mouthing is to be corrected by gentle, distracting taps of the heeling stick and/or a quiet sit. Saying "hold" quietly once in awhile is OK. Another thing you can do is to tap both ends of the bumper with your index finger to firm up the grip. Use the indirect pressure of a verbal "sit" of tap of the heeling stick to distract the dog from any mouthing. Do not use the word "no" at any time. Promote the idea you are doing this together, but you are in charge. He depends on you for his fun.
4) Repeat with birds.....all this is done with the Flexi-lead, quietly, slowly and calmly. The use of a quiet "good" should be carefully mixed into the routine especially at times when the dog is sitting still with a quiet mouth or when the dog drops on commmand. Do not "jazz" the dog up with "happy bumpers" or great celebrations during or after the session. However, a calm extended snuggle is not a bad idea. This all has to be seen as fun.
The rationale is to alter the dog's perception of you and introduce a new standard.
I am presently doing all of this with Gunny. He just finished FF and we are ready to move on to pile work. I want his handling and delivery of bumpers to be anxiety free (before hand). |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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Ruby's pal
SW Oregon
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| 03/05/2008 1:14 PM |
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Now Jim there you go giving a great logical way to go about this. I tried the heavy handed approach and made things worse with Meg.....
Great advice! Thanks for sharing!!!!
Pat
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Lord may I be half the man that my dogs think that I am! |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 03/05/2008 2:41 PM |
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Pat this approach was a result of last year's Kentucky seminar with Julie.
Not the idea itself, but the approach that problems occur when responsiveness, "birdiness", retrieving, focus and control get out of balance. Now when I see a problem, I try to figure out which one or two are the ones out of balance and adjust. If you really work at it the dog will tell you before it gets too "out of whack" (in theory).
A lot of this technique has resulted in proactive training with Gunny. I now see where and why I got in trouble with Taffey, Kooly and Daisy. Therefore, I can change what I have done in the past to avoid some issues with Gunny.
Before.......if something happened, I would design a process to correct it. Many times it did not tackle the root of the problem....just applied a patch. By masking a problem it may appear to go away, but the fatal flaw generally resurfaces again in another area requiring another patch job. Some refer to it as a "hole in the program".
For example this issue with mouthing. If you accept the premise that anxiety is the reason. When did this start? Most pups are picking up marks before they have a good grasp of "here". There is no heel to delivery and rarely come right back and sit to give up the bumper.
Therefore, before formal OB, proper mouth habits and the correct heel/sit delivery, there is the continual, close conflict with getting the bumper back.
Owners end up grabbing the pup, yanking on checkcords, taking the bumper away too quickly, forcing the bumper out of a tightly clamped mouth, attempting OB too soon and generally appearing more agitated by the close proximity of the pup. Any of these will cause a pup to be apprehensive about being near the handler. It is rarely pleasant, calm and relaxing when bumpers are involved.
Add to this the fact that later most corrections for OB are close in, e-collar corrections start on leash and FF uses an ear pinch to get the point across. So at the end of FF a pup has has a mirade of reasons and months to be anxious near his handler.
The next step is pile work. Where teaching a pup how to handle a bumper is supposed to take place. This is one of those sequences that generally gets glossed over. After a few days, the pup can pick up a bumper, so moving along too quickly into the more exciting "stuff" in inevitable.
However, this is the time that is the most critical in the transition. The idea is to repeat pile work with a consistent approach which establishes standards including calmness in delivery and making sure mouth habits are secure.
Looking back, Taffey loved games and would pick-up large quantities of bumpers in drills as fast as I could take them from her. Doing the handling and playing the game was much more important than deliberate, calm deliveries. She came ripping back to the line with one thing on her mind, "Take this &*^$% bumper.......get out of my way......I want to get another one.......hurry.....hurry.....hurry." At the time, I thought to myself this is "so cool". Big mistake....even though she could "hurry real good".
The line became a place to get away from, not somewhere to focus and certainly not a place to relax. Mouthing was nothing more than something to do to cope with the anxiety at the line. I was feeding the beast.....so to speak.
If a dog is mouthing bumpers....it is telling you something. Generally, more pressure is not the answer and doing more of the same...just somehow better....is a trap. 
So what was the patch and did it work? What Pat mentioned......pressure and a heavy hand. Well, she got her HRCH and MH titles in six weeks of almost flawless work.....with someone else. It didn't work with me at her side. When I was there, Taffey was never convinced my pressure meant all that much.
Once you establish yourself as a "potted plant", it is difficult to overcome the perception. 
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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Ruby's pal
SW Oregon
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| 03/05/2008 5:49 PM |
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Jim,
As always thanks for taking the time to put great thoughts into words.
Every new trainer should print your post out and read it before they train every time!!!!
Meg and Taffey both have high retrieving drive and Meg can hurry real good as well......
It is almost always the trainer and seldom the dogs fault....
Glad that Gunny is getting a clearer picture.
Pat
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Lord may I be half the man that my dogs think that I am! |
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 03/05/2008 7:08 PM |
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Posted By bakerm12 on 03/03/2008 1:47 PM
How about a young pup 14 weeks old, that basically has lock jaw on birds and prefers not to bring them back? She is very protective over toys at home too.
Check cord for her to return.
For "lockjaw", take ahold of the bird -- at the precise time you give your "drop" command, just lift up on the flap of skin right between the front of her upper thigh and belly -- she'll drop the bird right out.
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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Bear
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| 03/14/2008 6:50 AM |
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I would like to thank everyone for their time and advice. Even after a week things have started to improve. Some of the improvement might come from the fact that I now have a direction and plan to adress the problem.
Thanks for all the help. |
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