deepworker
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| 01/07/2008 1:12 PM |
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| I have an 11 month old PL that has just gotten back from a trainer. The trainer only worked on the pup to bring out his point. (Trieven pup shows no sign of pointing)the trainer used a collar on him but only for recall and a few obedience corrections. what I believe has happened is that the pup is conditioned wrong. If you use the collar on him he looks at it as if he did something wrong, then you cant get him to do it again. he will remote sit to whistle but if you us the collar when you give the command he wont sit and tries to avoid sitting all- together. the sit example is just one of a few things that the pup responds in this way. any suggestion's? |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 01/07/2008 4:10 PM |
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| Never fixed a dog that was messed up by another trainer!! This sounds like a job for............Julie or OD Or any other Pro on here!! |
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oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas
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| 01/07/2008 8:37 PM |
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It is going to be hard for people on here to be able to get a good idea what exactly might be wrong with the dog without seeing his reactions.
If I was you I would look on here or email a bunch of people and see if there is a credible trainer close to you. Then take the dog over there to have him take a look at him.
If I had to guess I would say that the dog was over corrected, and not actually collar conditioned. A dog that has been appropriately collar conditioned still carries himself well and responds quickly to commands. I dog that is slow to sit with the collar most likely doesn't completly understand how to get the shocking to quit. Therefore, stands there and takes the pain. The best thing you can do, IMO, is walk the dog at heel and tell the dog to sit, give stimulation, and help the dog put his butt down and quickly let off the collar.
It is also possible, though I doubt this to be the issue, that your dog is hard headed and tries to avoid pressure. |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 01/07/2008 8:46 PM |
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| Given this comment the trainer used a collar on him but only for recall and a few obedience corrections ......the pup has not been collar conditioned. Therefore, trying to use the collar will probably produce the reactions you are seeing.
The e-collar works well if introduced correctly. This means that a pup neeeds to be taught how to respond to commands AND what corrections are like long before collar conditioning.
For example, a quick snap with a choke collar is pressure. If he sits properly and quickly, the pup learns how to respond to that pressure. The same thing with a heeling stick. Both of those correction tools should be used to enforce taught commands before CC. Many even do FF before CC to further entrench the idea of responding to pressure by knowing how to turn it off.
AFTER these early exposures to pressure conditioning.......the pup is prepared for collar conditioning and the transition is much easier.
Seems to me this pup has missed a few steps along the way. When this happens you get reactions which are not normal.
A pup must be taught how to respond to pressure. If not, it is highly unlikely he will spontaneously know what to do. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
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Ruby's pal
SW Oregon
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| 01/07/2008 8:56 PM |
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Well put Jim. It sounds like this trainer didn't use a good sequential approach to training and abused the collar. It will take time and patience to start over and work with the dog to build it's confidence and teach in a layered approach. Too may enforce too early without giving the dog a good understanding of how to turn off pressure. It is sad because the dog always pays the price.....
Pat
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Lord may I be half the man that my dogs think that I am! |
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deepworker
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| 01/08/2008 9:01 AM |
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| The pup is very hard headed. he almost gets mad when you want him to sit in the house and he doesn't. when teaching the down command he will swat at you as he is going down. as i said he is very hard headed. so the jest of what I am hearing would be to start him over from the beginning on collar conditioning? lets say take Julies book and start from day one on collar conditioning? where would one want to start to fix this? |
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KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL
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| 01/08/2008 11:29 AM |
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Your last post reminded me of this link. It may help.
The Connection (Link)
A dog that is unhappy will not respond as well to training.
With the pup I'm doing OB on right now, I spent a whole lot of time convincing him that I'm a lot of fun. The next step was to show him that there are rules and expectations in life.
When it was time for formal OB, he understood his role was that of a student and knew who was in charge. This must be established correctly.
When formal obdience began Gunny was familiar with turning off pressure. Lunging on an English slip lead was not acceptable and to go outside he had to sit first (along with a lot of other things). In other words, he passively learned NILIF.......nothing in life is free.
Formal obedience started with two weeks of a pinch collar. After that, he was transition to the choke collar. Lately, the heeling stick has been introduced and proper responses to that are coming along quite well. However, during this time the main focus was to keep him willing and happy.
Once a young dog has learned how to respond well to the choke collar and heeling stick.....off lead with distractions......you might consider e-collar conditioning. Are you there yet?
What makes this whole thing more difficult is that every dog is unique. Some dogs are in a different zone when you start. The correct sequence may require a totally different approach, but the common factor is getting a willing, happy pup first. Are you there yet?
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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deepworker
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| 01/08/2008 12:57 PM |
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| He does well at heel, he may pull a little. when I stop he sits but not very quickly, at most things he does there is not a lot of urgency. except retrieving, that is done full speed ahead and he loves it. The more I read about the obedience the more i think he has a way to go. nothing he does on the obedience side of things is done with any urgency. no I do not think I am there yet. I thank you for your input. the pup is going to a different trainer in the spring. more formal waterfowl work. he still shows no sign of pointing. I guess the thing to do is start working harder on the obedience. wait and see how he is coming along. I may let the trainer do the collar conditioning if I'm not there by the time he heads back. thank you again |
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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
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| 01/08/2008 2:04 PM |
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Posted By deepworker on 01/08/2008 12:57 PM
He does well at heel, he may pull a little. when I stop he sits but not very quickly, at most things he does there is not a lot of urgency. except retrieving, that is done full speed ahead and he loves it. The more I read about the obedience the more i think he has a way to go. nothing he does on the obedience side of things is done with any urgency. no I do not think I am there yet.
I agree with what Jim said about making sure the pup is having fun. With a dog that is reluctant to respond to obedience, there is sometimes a strong desire to "make" him comply. In my experience this can have the opposite effect. Instead of going head first into obedience, I would suggest you get back to showing your dog that learning can be fun. Look for ways to improve his attitude. Put him in a better state of mind for learning. JMO.
Rob
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deepworker
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| 01/08/2008 2:46 PM |
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| The pup loves to go out and do his training. He will heel head up waging his tail. you say sit and he just nonchalantly sits down. I hate to use the word reluctant to do things, he just does it with no urgency. will having more fun get him to sit, or recall faster? . At times he seams to avoid doing what is asked regardless of pressure. He is VERY hard headed. I'm not very good at explaining this. I shall try to make training as happy as I can. Thank You again |
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KwickLabs
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| 01/08/2008 3:47 PM |
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Oakcreeks point about a need to observe what is going on is important. If I have a pup that is in the right frame of mind (happy, excited, willing and knows how to sit) and then he shows no since of urgency on a sit command........he will acquire one right quick.
I've told this story before and I know many have seen similar situations.
One day I went over to talk to my pro trainer friend. He was busy with a client in an OB lesson. I pulled up a chair to watch. A good sized Lab was being handled by a young lady and the dog was all over the place.......jumping up on her, jerking her around, bouncing out front and behind and even trying to run between her legs.
After a bit, Brian took the lead and snapped the choke collar once. He made a few more corrections and the dog was heeling perfectly. He sat when Brian stopped and kept right beside him when on the move. He finished by sitting quietly while Brian discussed with the lady what just happened. He then handed the leash back to the lady and the dog immediately went back to what he was doing before. Brian again took over......different dog....again.
After the lady left, I asked Brian how long she had been taking lessons with him. It was her first lesson....and the dog's, too. I learned this from Brian........It's not usually the dog, and it is not easy when you are new at it. |
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Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II)
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"Excellence is Expected" |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 01/08/2008 4:24 PM |
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Nice post Jim!!
Deepworker, I disagree with you that you have a hard headed dog!
If you read Jims last post when training a dog especially close to you the dog reads you like a book. With you He knows what he can get by with, Therefore you may have to raise your standards in Obediance, (When you say sit he should sit or a sharp snap up on the choke collar should occur) (pressure)!! If you say sit and let him sit at his own pace you are defeating your purpose in training (I think).
You make the dog adjust to your standard!! Not you adjusting to his standard!! |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
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SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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deepworker
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| 01/08/2008 4:41 PM |
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| So if I put everything I have read together, I need to demand the dog that the dog sit faster, sharp snap up on the collar ( pressure) but make the whole training processes as fun as possible? make him want to learn, and make it fun to learn. should I consider force fetching before collar conditioning?(after I learn how to do obedience)
Any additional input is always welcome, Thank You again |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 01/08/2008 6:14 PM |
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| Deepworker Have fun training, and make it fun to learn but make a goal of how you want your dog to handle! Gary told me this once (Do you want a porsche or a pinto?) You decide to what excellence you want your dogs level of training! You can have fun training (I do) but demand alot from your dog and get it! |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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OD
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| 01/12/2008 10:19 PM |
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First thing I would suggest is talking to the trainer you sent your dog
to. Ask specifically what he did as far as the collar goes. Then have
hiim show you what he has done. There is a a process to follow when
collar conditioning. There are no shortcuts in the process. It sounds
like you potentially have several things going on. Being hard headed is
a learned response. Usually a result of a couple of things . One a
general attitude about going to work. Another is lack of respect. Kwick
mentioned a trainer that he saw a trainer get a different response than
an owner. It is common I see it all the time with clients and their
dogs. When I handle dogs I commincate so there is no gray area when
working with them. Both in teaching the concept and correcting when
they undrstand it. Dogs sense or know when they are working with
someone that demands the correct response as well as expecting a mutual
relationship of respect. In plain english they know when a trainer
means business and they are expected to respond. Their attitude can
change in a matter of seconds when they realize what a trainer's
expectations are. Which ties directly into one of what I call the
Golden Rules of Training. Your dog responds to your level of
expectation. They dont care what level you want. If you want good , bad
or ugly work. YOU SET THE STANDARD. They will respond to the standard
what ever it is. That is why your standards should always be high. That
is also why good trainers can get the most out of a dog. Consitently
high standards and raising the bar when the dog is ready.
As Kevin mentioned you have a choice, depending on your dog's and your
training abiltiies, of driving a Porshe or Pinto. It is really up to
you to decide. Probably the most important concept for you or anyone to
learn about training is to think like a dog. Learn how to look at all
your work with your dog from their perspective. They are telling you
things, giving feedback all the time your working with them. Learn to
speak their language and you and your dog with progress greatly.
One last thing teach first completely then correct. You should teach
with the lead and choke chain. You cant train a dog with an e-collar.
It is a great tool used correctly which is to correct for what the dog
completly understands but refuses to do. Big difference, critical
difference.
Good Luck
Gary
PRG |
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