Barking and whinning dog > Forum > American Pointing Lab Association

Forums

Forums > American Pointing Labrador Association > Training

Subject: Barking and whinning dog

Please Register to post to the American Pointing Labrador Association Forums

Author

Messages

stuw
North Central Minnesota

Master
Master

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:967

10/29/2007 4:15 AM	Alert
Ellie and I worked a tower shoot this weekend.....250 birds...10 gunners, 10 dog handlers... She did great on the retriving ..she got well over 30 birds..only problem is she would bark or whine when another dog got the retrieve or when a bird flew away with out getting shot.....no matter what I did..she wouldnt shut up... It was embarrassing after awhile..I had the ecollar on her..and corrected her ...with little or no results...(she has a very large tolerence to correction) by the time we hit station 5..she would go nuts when she heard the guns go off on the other side of the hunt... Some of the gunners were not the best of shots..and we had lots of "no bird" situations...she wouldnt break..or if another dog was sent for the retrieve she always came back on the "no bird" command..but then she would look at where the bird had flown to and whine whine whine...LOUDLY... She's always been a very hyper dog in the field..but this was rediculous...luckily there were two other dogs with the same issues...so I didnt feel like a total idiot. Any suggestions on how to cure this problem?? we have two more tower shoots coming up..and I may have to leave her home and bring Dragon out instead...

APR Gull Dam Labs Sagebrush Dragon ??R Gull Dam Labs Lady Willow

Zeke

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:311

10/29/2007 4:39 AM	Alert
Hey Stu, Zeke has not had any whining problems, but we have had line manner issues. I see it a couple of ways, you can correct the bad behavior, deny the reward on bad behavior, and/or reward the good behavior. I never had much luck with Zeke on correcting the bad behavior, so I simply deny the reward when it occurs. If Zeke creeps, no retrieve. He gets it instantly and for him, it is much more effective than zapping him with the e-collar. In your situation, I would bring both dogs to the next shoot. If Ellie barks and whines, then Dragon gets the retrieve. When Ellie finally put 2 and 2 together and doesn't whine, I would give her the retrieve. Zeke

MPR Zeke the Wonder Dog HRCH www.freewebs.com/zekethewonderdog PR Director of the Michigan Mafia MM Run-N-Gun Asssociation

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

Master
Master

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:679

10/29/2007 1:11 PM	Alert
What Mike said. Here are a couple of other things that work (or don't). Indirect pressure can be applied for sit. Just do the "sit/stick/sit" routine, don't be gentle and follow it up with Mike's idea. Another alternative to indirect pressure on sit is to use it with backward heeling. Have the dog on lead, back up and enforce heeling. At the same time grab the dog's muzzle, look her in the eye and demand/enforce the guiet commmand. This phycial contact with "no bark" or "quiet", should go back to something that was learned as a pup. This fits more into the teaching mode vs. punishment. A "line vocalizing" dog generally is not aware you are there. So give them a clue. The backward heeling is a distraction (indirect pressure in a sense). It enables the dog to recognize you as being more than just a "potted plant". This presents an opportunity to reestablish the two way street of responsiveness. The problem is the vocal dog is out of balance. The dog needs to become more responsive (to you). Look at the "list of five" in Julie's book. The dog is too birdy (thus the denial), not responsive (one way street) and out of control (vocalizing). Control needs to be redefined while restoring responsiveness -"Gundog lingo". This is not a couple of weeks fix. Deprograming a dog can be a long drawn out process. Sometimes, regular maintenance is the only alternative. I would not use an e-collar for any voacalization issues. The e-collar is used to enforce a learned behavior. An overly excited, vocal dog does not know (in that context) "barking" is unacceptable. In fact, many say the e-collar makes the problem worse. edit: Mike do you believe a dog thinks logically.......like "Let's see? If I don't bark.....he'll let me retrieve." OR is the dog more than likely now acknowledging your presence which results in paying more attention to you...becoming more responsive...reestablishing control....restoring balance......and indirectly getting the bird?

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Zeke

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:311

10/30/2007 4:14 PM	Alert
Hey guys, a little wrapped up being a dad right now, but I have a long answer that I want to reply wiith as soon as I can bust away. Zeke

MPR Zeke the Wonder Dog HRCH www.freewebs.com/zekethewonderdog PR Director of the Michigan Mafia MM Run-N-Gun Asssociation

Paco
On a stream in NW,MI.

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:138

10/31/2007 5:22 PM	Alert
Hi Stu, You're getting good advice. I have a dog that gets a bit vocal when fired up for tower shoots and sometimes at hunt tests,but never when actually hunting,go figure.I worked three weekends in a row(tower shoots) and he improved dramatically each one.I think the collar is useless with this problem,the old pinch collar is probably a better choice.I just know it is a tuff fix.Mine is an inherited problem for sure,so I have to work on it whenever it shows itself.It is not often,and can't seem to fake him out in training scenarios,to get a good correction.Regular doses of the really exciting stuff seems to take care of it,but how many of us can provide that? But there is the answer for me anyways,I still prefer he be over-excited about birds than under-excited.For me it's a problem only under judgement. Paco P.S. Gator says hey! Zeke

Association of the MM,and proud member of Team RUN-N-GUN--- GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "Gator" and introducing--CPR HRK's Liberators Outlaw"Rondo"

Zeke

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:311

11/01/2007 3:44 AM	Alert
FRank & Gator - You dudes rules!!!!! Zeke says Hola and that it is good to have you on the forum, but he does miss Gator! Zeke Only Gator could make the MPR look easy - way to go!

MPR Zeke the Wonder Dog HRCH www.freewebs.com/zekethewonderdog PR Director of the Michigan Mafia MM Run-N-Gun Asssociation

Zeke

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:311

11/24/2007 5:17 AM	Alert
Mike do you believe a dog thinks logically.......like "Let's see? If I don't bark.....he'll let me retrieve." OR is the dog more than likely now acknowledging your presence which results in paying more attention to you...becoming more responsive...reestablishing control....restoring balance......and indirectly getting the bird? Sorry for the delay, being a good dad comes first and is time consuming! Interesting question Kwick. I believe that with Zeke, to some extent, it is a combination of thinking logically and the acknowledgement of my presence & leadership. By denying the bird, I am showing him that I call the shots, being the pack leader if you will. Be responsive to me, acknowledge my presence & leadership, and good things will happen. Concerning the comment of thinking logically, I believe there is some element of logical thought. Zeke is a high intelligence dog, and I think he “gets it” more than I do. He alone has changed my thinking completely concerning the intelligence and thoughts processes of dogs. I also believe that his “logical thinking” has to do with Zeke’s training From the time he has been a little guy, our training regimen has also reinforced this “logical way of thinking & behaving.” We live by the rules that “I get what I want first, then Zeke gets what he wants.” Before he is let out of his kennel, I get a sit (what I want). Before he eats, I get a sit, or a down, or a reverse heel (what I want). Before he is “loved up”, I get a sit, a down, or a heel. When we had creeping issues, I denied him the bird. In fact, when he creeped, I gave him an “uggh”, told him to go back to his kennel, denying him the bird. Then brought him out 2 minutes later to repeat the whole process. Each time he came back to the line, if he creeped, I said “uggh”, told him to go back to his kennel, denying him the bird. Each time, his creeping slowly went away. On the 13th bird, he didn’t move. The next day, he mistakenly creeped, looked at me, then ran into his kennel. Is this logical thinking, or the result of a trained response? Before a competition, when I need to shore up his line manners, we will go back to this process. Unfortunatly, I don’t always hold him to the standards that I should, especially now with even more limited time and energy (lil baby). At a tower shoot, there is often a long wait in between shooting and retrieving. At first, Zeke thought he screwed up and creeped because he was not immediately getting the birds. He looked backed at me, started shoring up his heel and sit, trying to make it perfect so that he would get the bird. That was a fascinating experience. Stu, I am not sure my suggestion would work, unless this way of thinking is built into your training program. In other words, its not a short term fix, but more of a philosophy and way of approaching your interactions with your dog. Gotta get back to my daughter! My training and hunting have been limited this year, I miss it. When I retire, I am going to be like Kwick. But for now, I love being a dad! Zeke

MPR Zeke the Wonder Dog HRCH www.freewebs.com/zekethewonderdog PR Director of the Michigan Mafia MM Run-N-Gun Asssociation

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

Master
Master

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:679

11/25/2007 9:57 AM	Alert
It's about time you came back and explained! I was geting tired of reading "11/01/2007 4:44 AM Zeke". The dog thinking logically may not be what you are getting. What has happened is repetition of a routine. Animals thrive on predictable formats. It's when we allow them to dictate variable approaches the problems mount. It's funny how your "distractions" from replying allowed me to come across a concept that seems to be relevant to this discussion. The other day a pro trainer was discussing the progress of a "troubled" young dog she had taken on. In the discussion, the dog was seemingly quite responsive to what was referred to as the NILIF approach. I must admit it meant nothing to me, and of course there seemed to be no volunteer posters to ask the big question.....What the "heck" is NILIF? So I waited a few days. Nothing clarified the situation. Finally, I did some searching. Some of you may know what it means, but I sure didn't. It means "Nothing is Life is Free". Simple stated the dog doesn't get anything without your input. It doesn't involve being a "hard task master". However, the consistent message is whatever the dog "gets" must clearly occur because of you. This singular message paints a clear picture for the dog. He doesn't have to think much at all because he knows the one thing he has to do before performing any taught action is to seek permission. He must "pay something" before doing. The standard removes the competitive pressure between the trainer and student. Dogs that are highly driven, excitably and/or "on the edge" of loosing control will be more likely to respond to this singular behavior. NILIF does just what Mike mentioned....the dog becomes much more responsive. In a way it seems to me NILIF is another form of indirect pressure. Except the dog learns to initiate it. He looks to you as if to say, "OK!", offers you the token payment and asks, "Now can I do this?" In a way, I think we all have some sort of NILIF aspect to our training. However, it is more of a haphazard application. There is no consistent or clear message. Ttrainers that have actully established high OB standards probably are closer to it than most. I intend to practice at it. If you look it up on a Google search, it isn't all that complicated. NILF makes life simpler for everyone.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Zeke

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:311

11/25/2007 11:59 AM	Alert
Twice in the same weekend, a new posting record for me as of late. NILIF - I like it and it works for us. I agree with the statement, that it really works for high drive, on the edge types of dogs, the ones would rather retrieve than eat dogs. This concept is also at the center of "establishing yourself as the pack leader." The dog whisperer, Ceasar, uses this concept as well in most of his applications. While I do think that "thinking logically" for dogs is in part training, I also think that some dogs do think logically. I have seen too much "This then that" thinking that sugggests not all is training. More intuition on my part than evidence. On a side note, how is Julie's new method pointing drill working for you, Taffey, and Daisy? I am gearing up for Zeke's run at the big title this spring and need to get back to work on this and other drills. I hope that Wendell does the March Seminar again! Zeke

MPR Zeke the Wonder Dog HRCH www.freewebs.com/zekethewonderdog PR Director of the Michigan Mafia MM Run-N-Gun Asssociation

Jere

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:355

11/29/2007 1:42 AM	Alert
Hi Stu, Unfortunately, whining is a natural or genetically derived behavior in the dog. (A fellow from Great Britain I used to "talk" with on the internet said over there they will not breed a Lab that has this issue - but that won't help you.) Such natural behaviors are a real bother because, unlike trained behaviors, they do not "fade" or "extinguish" over time - they may get stronger. OTOH, an alternate trained behavior which one may succeed in establishing to replace an undesireable natural behavior will fade over time and maintaining it may be a continuous lifelong issue. With-holding the reward would be my first approach to attempt a "cure" - others have mentioned this already. The "tower shoot" scenario you describe may be an especially difficult place to try and cure this problem. You do not have the control there you may need. One aspect I would be especially cautious of would be the possibility that, due to your lack of control over the entire situation you might find yourself in the position of having to release the barking/whining dog for a retrieve (while she is barking'whining). You did not explicitly state this happened, maybe it did not. If it does happen it will have a strongly detrimental effect on any progress you may be making towards reducing the barking/whining. In essence, by doing this, you would be force training her to bark/whine when she encounters the stress of the situation which results in her barking/whining response. Force trained behaviors are the most resilient of trained behaviors. Following a forcing process which reinforces an unwanted behavior with a strong natural reward would seem to be be a recipe for "disaster." Good luck with Ellie. Jere

stuw
North Central Minnesota

Master
Master

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:967

11/29/2007 3:21 PM	Alert
Thanks for all the help and info everyone but the issue was resolved. I got a call the other day saying that Ellie wasnt welcome back for this saturdays tower shoot. I'm going to bring Dragon instead, she's quiet.

APR Gull Dam Labs Sagebrush Dragon ??R Gull Dam Labs Lady Willow

Jere

Advanced

Online Status: User is Offline

Posts:355

11/29/2007 4:05 PM	Alert
That's probably good news for you, Stu. Now, you can apply yourself to an attempt to fix the problem outside of the confounding tower shoot venue. You'll need to set up training situations which provide similar stimuli so she can respond and you can deal with her appropriately. It may not be an easy task, but, accomplishing a cure will be both educational and satisfying for you. Again, Good luck with Ellie. Jere

Please Register to post to the American Pointing Labrador Association Forums

Forums > American Pointing Labrador Association > Training > Barking and whinning dog