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Paco
On a stream in NW,MI.

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09/04/2008 2:24 PM	Alert
The title should have said;%of Labs that point naturally,Plus things to ponder.;What % of people involved with,or owning PLs,hunt them?Hunt wild birds?Hunt test them in any of the venues?Hunt only upland?(A darn shame for a lab IMO)Are thinking of how do we improve:the all around dog,the image,etc.? Not looking for the 8-10% guess,think a bit higher than that myself...I know that this forum is about Labs that point,(natural point). I wonder how many other PL/dogs are out there that belong to folks that have no knowledge of,or if they do,no interest in APLA tests(or any hunt testing) etc. I know of four PL Kennels in MI.(sure there are more),and to my knowledge,only one is active in APLA.Why is this? This brings up some interesting scenarios. I know that if I hadn't got involved in the testing,it would not have meant that my dog was not all Lab when it came to waterfowl,that pointed birds when upland hunting,with some ability.(Had just bought a lab,no plan on the point thing,he just did it,so I went with it.)----Makes me think that there are likely a heck of a lot of great dogs out there,out of the loop,so to speak....??? Some things to think about as we try to better these great dogs.I think there are a bunch of unknowns that could add to taking the PL to the next level.How do we get them known,or in the loop???Titles only count for so much,prey drive is where I see stars.Some things to think about. Look forward to your thoughts. Paco/df

Association of the MM,and proud member of Team RUN-N-GUN--- GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "Gator" and introducing--CPR HRK's Liberators Outlaw"Rondo"

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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09/04/2008 3:10 PM	Alert
I couldn't agree more. I have two dogs (brother and sister) with some PL and FC/AFC dogs on the topside and completely unknown dogs on the bottom side of their pedigree and they point harder, more consistently and stylishly than my other two dogs who are both products of GMPR X GMPR breedings! The nearest titled PL in their lines is their paternal grandfather (GMPR). I'm looking forward to experimenting with this "new" blood and seeing what I can produce with it down the road! I'm crossing my fingers that my male clears all of his health checks before breeding age...

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

steelheadfred

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09/04/2008 6:19 PM	Alert
Frank, As you and I have had some good off line discussion on a few of these topics. I will go a bit further, I believe the number of dogs (labs) that are exposed to a good amount of hard flying birds that at some point point is pushing 60%. In my circle, that includes now around 10 hard hunting Labradors, ranging in age from 5 months to 7 years, with 5 different owners, 9 of the dogs point at various times under different situations. They dont all point all the time. We dont hunt them as pointing dogs, but they are all exposed to a pile of wild birds. We have a brother and sister with some distant early PL blood, but for the most part those dogs are casual hunter/pet bred. We have a pure Hunt Test bred dog, and two PL bred dogs, another british field X american gun dog bred (the dog that points the least). We now have gotten into some pretty heavy American Field Trial blood, one dog has some Raider lines on the dam's side but she is close to her MH, needs one pass. These dogs show point at times. But we dont concern ourselves with it. As for why I dont test my dogs beyond our state RGS run and gun circuit. Well couple reasons, I am very competitive in my career, I know if I try it, I will get hooked and it will consume my life. I need my dogs to be relaxing and enjoyable. That said, I would much rather hunt all day for the chance at a wild bird, then play the kick and retrieve game. The best part of breeders breeding labs that point, IMO is the health, confirmation, and the right balance of gun dogs, FT dogs, hunt test dogs, that creates the right amount of "go" for our circle of hard core wild bird hunters. Just my thoughts...excellent post. The internet makes finding these dogs much much easier. The truth IMO is, dont put breeding restrictions on the dogs, and find a breeder whose opinion you trust. There is a line of labrador for everyone, this is the greaest part of the popularity of Labradors.

Paco
On a stream in NW,MI.

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09/10/2008 5:30 PM	Alert
Darn,,,Was hoping for more....Oh well!

Association of the MM,and proud member of Team RUN-N-GUN--- GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "Gator" and introducing--CPR HRK's Liberators Outlaw"Rondo"

oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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09/10/2008 8:31 PM	Alert
Personally I believe that there are a lot of labs out there that point, some more staunch then others. I believe that we need to breed dogs that are stauncher, and more stylish out the box then what we have been in years passed. I have a set of pups running right now that are out of a MNH QAA son of FC Dare to Dream x a Kodiac female, about 75% of the pups have been showing point since 5 weeks, some of them show nothing in regards to point. I didn't breed the litter to produce straight pointing pups, I knew that some would and I would have to look through them to pick out the ones that did (and the litter hasn't been advertised as a pointing lab litter). I think there are a lot of field trial dogs out there that will throw pointing instinct, however I am not sure that they are throwing pups that are staunch enough to market an entire litter as pointing labs. We need to be more specific about the females we breed, and I have been trying to take my own advice over the last couple years. I would also say that the worst pups I have ever had were out of GMPR sires, and some were GMPR's on both sides. I much rather look at a litter and see the ones pointing at 7 weeks then read a pedigree. We have a long ways to go in my opinion! Don't know if that was in any way what you were looking for, but it's my $.02 none the less.

Pigeon

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09/10/2008 10:00 PM	Alert
I agree with all post here......i own, trained or have in training some dogs that have top notch pointing pedigrees and don't or won't own them because they don't show me enough point or prey drive....i wash dogs that don't have the natural raw talent. (that i like to see in a dog) IMO.........you can't hunt a pedigree! I will buy the best and breed the best and with all factors in mind......but to stay in my kennel and hunt with me they must show me they can do it all....mark, point, hunt and have a sense of trainability.....if they don't have it then SEE YA! Someone else willl enjoy them as a gundog or it they choose a hunt test dog. Yes I look back at some dogs that i have sold and kick myself if i would have given them more of a chance they would have made that dog. And not all the dogs i selll are not to my liking they just don't have it all!

Alliesway
Mid-Michigan

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09/10/2008 10:50 PM

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oakcreeklabs
	RE: % of Labs that point naturally,Plus
	Personally I believe that there are a lot of labs out there that point, some more staunch then others. I believe that we need to breed dogs that are stauncher, and more stylish out the box then what we have been in years passed.

Edit: Sorry Paco,I reread your original post and  I got off subject but I am going to leave my reply anyway...

I am new to a lot of this but there are a few question I have that I am unsure there is a clear anserw for.
I am all for improving the P.L. line in the best way possible but what is it that makes a true pointing lab better?

* 100% Litter Point at 6-8 weeks?
* More stylish point more like the Short hairs and the English Pointers?
*Less drive for the water work and more drive for the upland?
    *Shorten the training process to get to finished dog in shorter time?
      * Should a person buying a pointing lab train it the same as the rest of the pointing breeds?Or that they have something special and it is going to take more time to get more in the end?

These question are just that question, I am not saying one is wrong or right...
The way I am seeing it is this; I am a waterfowler, who hunts upland. Now with all the looking I did before I finally took home my pup (2 years researching for the best I could afford) I decided on a P.L. because I do love the upland but waterfowling is 60% of my hunting...  I also need a dog for the family and I tell you I am living a dream right now because I have it all going on right now!!!!

Now if a pointing lab was a bread that happens to do water work with extra training effort I don't know if I would have went down the same road.. It's a tough call because I did research the other versitle breeds but I am just a lab guy...
I don't know if there ever will be a strait anserw because everyones hunting style and requirments are different...

I don't like the way people use the title Pointing Labs losely, mainly for market. Right now it is the consumers choice as to any breed; do your home work and you can get good stuff..
Grab a flier off a buliten board and you may get something good, or not...

I feal the way Grady and I are progressing that this is my dream dog, prey drive off the charts, water-upland-family!!!
Man it don't get any better.. Although I know I have an exceptional dog compared to most

....

This is just some thougths of mine and it maybe a different view to look at as I am still an outsider with different perseptions...

Steve

HRK's Liberator "Grady" of Cackling Acres

I am not allowed to have fun at work, but you can bet I will running dogs!!!

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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09/11/2008 6:13 AM	Alert
Hey ,at least there not from show lines, I see a few at hunt tests that dont even have the desire to get a live flier!! If Julie would chime in, and looking at the dogs at hunt tests, there are alot of Pointing labs doing some nice work there, I would say pushing 1/3 of the group. And then to point what a plus, I have 8, 4 PLs, 4 flushers, I like the ones that live on the edge, the only problem with those dogs is there prey drive is so strong that when young they tend to blow through a point, they tend to lack in cooperation(do it on there own) but that stuff is fixable, all you have to do is slow them down alittle in the field, let the point develop and let the dog mature, and you have one heck of a dog for life. Kevin

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

Julie

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09/11/2008 7:11 AM	Alert
Nice question, pretty impossible to answer in my book. There are some great dogs out there, lots of ordinary ones and even more subordinary ones. I've yet to meet the person who felt they had a subordinary one until they actually got to see what else was out there. I don't think you'll ever see a great number of people running the PL's at the highest levels where complete performance in the upland field and the retriever stuff is required - because it is so darned hard to get them there and keep them there. It's hard for me and I have some experience. I can imagine what it is when it is your first few dogs, you don't even know how to strike a good balance. I've seen show dogs point birds, had it happen right here and the owners asked me to 'fix it'. I've seen well bred PL's point mildly and if I didn't grab it and enhance it, it would likely fade. On occasion, I get one of those that points, always points, holds point and doesn't know to do anything else. That alone isn't reason to reproduce however, though it always happens. As far as percentages everyone likes to throw out, I say that's impossible. I wouldn't dream of trying to capture that because I've seen dogs point early as pups, PL's and Schnauzers, and never point as hunting dogs. So does that count? Does the bird planting heavy whoa'er count as much as the guy who only hunts wild birds? What about the dog that has bird dog in his grandparents and no one knows it because it was before DNA requirments, and the hummer points better 'than all the GMPR's'? How does that factor in? Enjoy what you enjoy. I don't know, let everyone else do the same. Julie

Paco
On a stream in NW,MI.

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09/13/2008 10:42 AM	Alert
Now that's more like it.Wasn't really looking for anything,more than throwing some stuff out to get some discussion,opinions,and maybe help me form some of my own,and evolve.I find in my hunting/dog interest that I'm always trying to move forward and learn---Thanks,I got a lot to learn,,,,,,Paco

Association of the MM,and proud member of Team RUN-N-GUN--- GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "Gator" and introducing--CPR HRK's Liberators Outlaw"Rondo"

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