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Subject: Issues with Classifieds Policy!?!
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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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09/01/2008 10:20 PM Alert 
This topic has been discussed briefly in another post, but I thought it deserved a thread of it's own...

How many of you disagree with the requirements for listing dogs for sale on this website?

I am trying to sell a started dog, but I am unable to list her for sale in the classifieds due to her parents not being APLA titled dogs. This particular dog just earned her CPR title in Larkspur and is titled in her own right, but the policy requires at least one of her parents to be titled as well!

Does anyone else find this a bit ridiculuous?

I guess I'll have to list this APLA titled dog for sale on 'the other' site!

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09/02/2008 4:26 AM Alert 
I am pretty sure you can sell a started dog that is APLA titled. The parents don't have to be titled

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Rob G
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09/02/2008 4:59 AM Alert 
I tried to post her ad last night and it wouldn't let me do it without filling out her parents information.

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stuw
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09/02/2008 5:29 AM Alert 
Rob,
Is the dog over 2yrs old and have her own Cerf and OFA numbers?? if so enter those numbers in the Sire area and then type N/A in the dam areas..of course list the CPR title.. it should work.. Not alot different than posting a stud.

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Rob G
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09/02/2008 5:47 AM Alert 
Stu,


She is 14 months old and does not yet have her clearances (and she is spayed so breeding her is out of the question)...


Rob

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stuw
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09/02/2008 7:41 AM Alert 
Rob,
I just talked with Jeff, You should be able to post your started dog by filling out the application with BOTH sire and dam's OFA and Cerf numbers and then listing CPR title in the appropiate area. If BOTH parents do not have their OFA and Cerf numbers the add would be against APLA POLICY..Use the description area to clarify things.

Hope that helps..

Stu

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Rob G
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09/02/2008 8:24 AM Alert 
Thanks for looking into this for me Stu.


The fact is, she came from relativley unknown lines and her parents do not have all of the their health clearances (Dam has both, Sire has neither). I figured since she is spayed, that would not be much of an issue since she can't be used for breeding stock.


Oh well...


Rob


P.S. This isn't a dog I bought, but rather a dog I rescued that I'd hoped to give a new lease on life and find a good home for.

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Larry Moderator
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09/03/2008 8:51 AM Alert 
Rob,

I think you have done a good thing with the rescue and the training of the dog. In my opinion, I agree in this special situation that an APLA titled and spayed dog without parents health clearences should be allowed to be listed as a started dog for sale. Maybe you would be ask for the vet's statement of spaying. But, this is just me.

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Rob G
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09/03/2008 10:10 AM Alert 
Thanks for your opinion Larry. I can certainly provide a Vet's statement of spaying...


Not sure where to take this from here...

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stkpointers
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09/04/2008 11:26 AM Alert 

Just curious - what "other" site?    I've got a dog to sell, it's posted everywhere and the more sites and exposure I can get it on, the better.   Or is it a secret? 







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09/04/2008 1:15 PM Alert 
I checked www.pointinglab.com and got a reply that the site subscription ran out 8/18/08. It isn't up at this time. Larry

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09/04/2008 1:30 PM Alert 
http://www.pointinglabforum.com/


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stkpointers
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09/04/2008 2:12 PM Alert 
Thanks guys!   That's Double D Hot Tub Hanna, our female, in the picture.  I've got 1 last male pup by her and Mallard that's left for sale which is why I asked about the sites.  I'll be running Hanna for her CP in Monroe, WA the end of this month, and man am I nervous.   I've never even seen a hunt test let alone run one, but if she doesn't pass it will be because I screwed it up!

Which leads me to your original subject of the Classifieds, for many reasons like not belonging to the APLA until last year, Hanna having a litter of pups on the ground and the wrong time of year for a test, we've never had her titled.   As you can see she points, and hard!   Both her sire and dam are titled but if they weren't, I wouldn't have been able to advertise.   For my two cents, if a person can prove the dog can point and it's CERF'd and OFA'd why not be able to advertise?   I'm glad there's a way to work around it. 

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Rob G
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09/04/2008 3:03 PM Alert 
Posted By stkpointers on 09/04/2008 2:12 PM
I'm glad there's a way to work around it. 


Exactly what way is there to work around it?

If you mean advertise you dogs on a site other than the APLA webstite, then I guess that's one way around it!

Rob

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DWestphal

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09/05/2008 10:07 AM Alert 

If I'm looking for a PL litter I want to know that there's more to this potential dog then simply the word of the breeder and a picture isn't "proof".  If I took everyone at their word, I'd be a salesman's dream and have a closet full of crappy vaccum cleaners. You may have been able to fool me a while back, but not anymore. So my initial checks start with titles. It's the only proven means of indicating which dogs have shown the pointing instinct (or other). So under that philosophy then a CPR x CPR would be relevant right? Wrong. Enter evaluation #2. Consistency, which goes hand in hand with titles. Having been at a couple of APLA tests and also other retriever related tests, I've seen dogs qualify that have no business doing so (IMO). Sure they point, but aren't labs supposed to do more?  So the CPR doesn't mean what it perhaps should. Good dogs have bad days...bad dogs have good days, so how do you weed those bad dogs out....consistency. Show me more then once and at increasingly difficult levels. Unless a dog just goes out and smacks the test, I'm still going to approach it with a level of pessimism. Why? Because I can. There are plenty of quality breedings going on every day, so there's no need for me to even have a hint of doubt about one. CPR x CPR....nice start, but show me more. From there we can then go into pedigree, health etc...but that's where I'm starting, titles. Prove to me that your dog is worthy of my $$.

I see untitled...and I'm out the door. Could this in the long run cost me a potentially tremendous pup/dog, you bet. But again, I can afford that luxury with the # of retriever litters being put on the ground.

If I'm the APLA, my first goal ISN'T numbers. It's about proving to the nay sayers that our dogs are everything we advertise them to be. You'll never change everyone's opinions, but the PL is still looked down upon by the retriever community on a whole (IMO). You want to add credibility to the organization, and I don't believe that you can do that via CPR x untitled or untitled x untitled. Once you get that credibility, I think your numbers will grow accordingly. If your organization holds no credibility, look no further then what's happened with NAHRA and rubbergate. A tremendous program that was played with way more then today took a HUGE hit when their credibility was lost. We're still struggling to recover from that. So I don't believe that the APLA needs to worry about numbers of members as many people elude to, they need to focus on their and the dogs that they promotes credibility. You start campaigning and advertising MPR/SH x APR/SH dogs, and all of a sudden that credibility goes up as does the organizations numbers.

Okay...off my soap box! :-)

Rob G
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09/05/2008 10:39 AM Alert 
On the other hand...


Not all APLA members test their dogs, yet they support the organization with the same membership fees that testing members do. Whether its their proximity to testing locations (not all of them have the luxury of tests taking place in their back yards, "literally" in some cases), or personal choice, the fact remains that they are still "members in good standing"


Why should these members be discriminated against in the placing of ads for their PL's?


As you stated in your post, you would personally stay away from a non-titled breeding. You even said in some cases a CPR X CPR is not enough (for you)...so would you support a minimum of APR X APR or even higher? OR perhaps we could give our members the freedom of choice to select from any and all PL litters (from members in good standing of course). Perhaps the market will dictate which litters sell and which litters don't...(and for what price)?


Credibility is a funny thing...it rarely comes to those that ask for it (or demand it). The biggest reason for PL's lack of credibilty amongst the rest of the world IMO is that too many people flap their lips instead of letting the dog's work do the talking (and in some cases the dog's work justifies the lack of credibility)...so be it.


I'd rather buy a pup from a litter I could see, touch, watch the parents work, etc. (titled or not) over buying the next 4XGMPR X 4XGMPR breeding sight unseen...Just my two cents!

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09/05/2008 10:56 AM Alert 
So if I have a Old school dog that i breed to with a RP. title. i couldn't advertise on apla becauce it is'nt a apla title or if I have a great pointing lab but don't run in events i can't advertise. I think one of the parents should have a apla title but I don't know about both. I think it is up to the buyer to choose what he wants for titles on a dog .

Did Raider or horse hunt club thors dam and sire both have apla titles? I don't remember if they did.
Rob G
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09/05/2008 11:00 AM Alert 
The current policy IS that one parent must be APLA titled.

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TC
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09/05/2008 12:26 PM Alert 
Thor is CPR titled, Raider is GMPR.  Just check the dog database link at the top of the page. 

If I'm personally looking for a dog, I want to see the dog's parents in action for myself, or at least talk to knowledgable people who have seen them.  If you think you have a special dog that's worth breeding, run it in an APLA test.  If the dog is REALLY special, you won't have any problems selling the pups.  If you want to see potential studs and dams? Go to a test, you'll learn a lot.

Before I'm interested in a litter, I need to know that the parents are healthy.  I also need to know that the temperament of the sire and dam fits my family - I have to live with the pup for 10+ years.  Then I start looking at the other stuff:  Both parents must point naturally, they must be cooperative, they must have excellent marking skills, bird drive, etc.

Can I make a judgment on these qualities in watching a dog at CPR?  Maybe.  I can almost always make a judgment watching a dog run in APR or MPR.  Simple things: is the dog somewhat cooperative when it walks to the line?  Does the dog sit calmly while watching marks?  Does it pin the memory bird in a double?  Is the dog taking casts and whistles when running a blind?

Just a few years ago, some really nice dogs would title out in a single weekend.  Now those dogs can run 8 times in Master before they max out with their 4XGMPR title.  As a result, I've had the opportunity to see some really nice dogs.  I appreciate that opportunity, and I thank their owners for spending the time and money to do it.  Non-APLA titles also tell me a lot about the dog.

So back to the classified policy - I think the current rules are probably just fine.  Just don't expect me as a buyer to get excited about a CPRXCPR or CPRXUntitled breeding.
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09/05/2008 12:28 PM Alert 
Rob- I agree with this 100%- "The biggest reason for PL's lack of credibilty amongst the rest of the world IMO is that too many people flap their lips instead of letting the dog's work do the talking (and in some cases the dog's work justifies the lack of credibility)...so be it." I see people advertising so called PL's after they saw their dog pause briefly on a pheasant. So it's those type of litters with the APLA is fighting against (figuratively speaking). If I’m unable to physically see the dog I need something as a starting point in order to start my research. How am I to know who’s word I am to take should someone with a lab that is rock solid tell me so vs some other schmo who says the same thing but their rock solid is nothing more then a sales pitch? Put a CPR or try to put that on both dogs and that provides the buyer with at least a starting point. Or…if it takes someone multiple passes to get that CPR, that could tell the buyer something as well……….as it should also tell something to the person thinking of breeding!  But up until that point I’m left with the sellers word. His perception of rock solid and mine may be two vastly different things, but we use the same terms. A title at least gives me something more to chew on. Now I did also say though that I could easily be missing out on some tremendous dogs based on my own buyer criteria/research, but again, FOR ME, that’s the risk that I’m willing to take. Not being able to personally check on every CPR x untitled litter out there and view the parents etc.. I have to use the other resources that are available.

Now whether the APLA makes their classified policy more strict or loosens it, in the end that’s up to the BOD. If I remember right there are some BOD positions available that people could throw their names into and try to push for this change (one way or the other), but I’m simply not a fan coming from a buyers perspective of loosening those requirements. I can understand members in good standing that have nice dogs and wish to advertise a litter from them but do not have the title(s), but I guess with tests being more wide spread across the country increasing the opportunities that are available to title your dog, I don’t see why as a breeder or potential breeder you wouldn’t want to try to title your dogs. Again, prove to me that your dog is worthy of my $. 

“I'd rather buy a pup from a litter I could see, touch, watch the parents work, etc. (titled or not) over buying the next 4XGMPR X 4XGMPR breeding sight unseen” As would I!! And in every instance I want to see both work. But if you were researching a litter and you saw these two advertised side by side, doesn’t one jump out at you as being more proven then the other? And if I’m a pessimist who thinks that this entire lab pointing deal is a bunch of hub bub over nothing, don’t you think that that second breeding at least shows me that these dogs have performed at a high level on a consistant basis and have exhibited a level of trainability that the untitled litter hasn’t shown me?
And if you’re the APLA, which litter do you want to advertise as promoting your “breed” of lab? 

Hamie- Raider is MHR GMPR MH. He’s proven himself in multiple venues at the highest levels. IMO opinion the key words there are proven, multiple and highest! ;-) And according to Karen Cashmens website…EIC clear!  .
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