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Subject: PL Market Saturated?

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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!

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08/28/2008 9:31 AM	Alert
So how the heck is limiting the field to raise the selling price of pups going to help the APLA Grow? I am not for more regulations af any kind. I opposed the 1cp dog rule and the health rules to advertise to be truthful-and you all know that no one is probably more concerned on labrador health and avoiding genetic issues then me. I believe in educating those that will bother to try to learn and letting as wide an audience participate. No matter what you do it is a buyer beware world. Anyway at this point I would not repeal the existing rules but adding more seems counter productive to the group as a whole.

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/28/2008 9:34 AM	Alert
I realize this thread started about the saturated market and that question has been answered...but since I started the thread, I don't mind the discussion...

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Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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08/28/2008 9:36 AM	Alert
I care about supporting the paying APLA members, not non-APLA PL breeders. To me it is clear to support those members titling their dogs in the APLA. And the one way is to require CPR xCPR minimum titles for classified. APLA Mission Statement “Identify, certify, and promote a strain of Labrador Retriever that points game as a natural act and still retains the ability to retrieve game on land or in the water.” Nothing in there about rewarding an APLA member to play the games….you already have to be a member to run an ad in the classifieds. I can easily identify a natural pointing dog and do promote the strain whenever I can. I’m a member but don’t play the games, does that make me a second class member? 1000-1750 for an 8wk old pup is absolutely absurd, I don’t care how many ribbons and letters before the parent’s name. That’s flat out greed and breeding for bucks. A guy can buy 8x Ch bred pointer or a setter pups for 400-500, stud service for this year National Bird Dog Champion, Whippoorwill Wild Agin is $600. I know its supply and demand, I might pay 800 for a pup, though I’ve never paid over 5. Think I’d go back to pointers if I had to pay over a grand for a pup, get me a well bred retriever for duck hunting. And still have money in my pocket to go hunting. Before raising the requirement for CPR X CPR minimum, we'd better be sure that that type of breeding produces all pointing litters...if not, what is the motive for raising the requirement. I agree with pretty much everything you posted up Rob, this really stands out…along with buyer beware.

¶r²

eagle_3464
SW Minnesota

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08/28/2008 10:34 AM	Alert
Like Mark, I will probably step on some toes as well. Is the PL market saturated? Well yes and quite possibly no. Yes, in a sense as to what the general public is willing to pay for a pup. I don’t recall where I first heard about PL’s but after tons of research that would be my choice of dog when the time came to purchase. Fortunately this research has lead me to a breeder who had the genetics I was looking for and a price I was willing to pay, $300 to $400 less then other litters using the same GMPR sire. Even at that, the price is still higher than pups I turned down out of GMHR Ramers Instant Cash Machine MH, the 2007 #1 ranked dog in NBDCA. So what makes PL’s so costly? I hope to find out once my puppy comes home. No, the market is not saturated when you consider how many labs are sold throughout the country each year. I’d be willing to bet that a good share of Joe Publics looking to purchase a lab have never heard of PL’s. Take those who have heard and top it with the cost of a GMPR litter to get good genetics and just how much is the pointing instinct worth? I would say if you bring PL prices in check with other breeds along with promoting the pointing instinct, you would be surprised at just how much demand there might be. There are a few breeders out there who have there prices in check and more often than not, their litters are sold prior to whelping. One fault I see with APLA is that all to often it is being used to test to higher levels, not because of a love for the game but to bring a premium for pups. Where is the promotion in that? The image will not be as an affordable gun dog that I can play the game with. To sum things up I feel it is the price and lack of real promoting that has the market saturated, and not the pointing instinct itself. Take for instance MN Game Fair where there is tons of dog owner traffic. I didn’t spend a lot of time there but nowhere did I see PL’s being promoted.

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/28/2008 10:50 AM	Alert
Let me state that my original post was not to indicate that the prices for pups being down is a bad thing, but rather I'm finally seeing some prices that are what I would consider 'reasonable'. I never liked seeing pups from unproven parents going for top dollar...

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

Trout Bum
Elbert County, CO

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08/28/2008 11:14 AM	Alert
There's a GMPR MH QAA sired X JH litter in the classifieds for $350. 4XGMPR sired x APR litter for $1700. hummmmm Just as good of chance to get that once in a lifetime dog out the $350 litter as in the high dollar fat cat litter.

¶r²

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/28/2008 11:29 AM	Alert
Posted By Trout Bum on 08/28/2008 11:14 AM Just as good of chance to get that once in a lifetime dog out the $350 litter as in the high dollar fat cat litter. Better yet...buy 4 or 5 of the $350 pups and stack your odds!

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

duckheads
Laporte, Indiana

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08/28/2008 12:17 PM	Alert
defininetly other markets out there i guess. one of our older members of hrc shows up to a meeting with a new pup. i talked to him a little bit and he says its a pointing lab. i ask him where he got the pup and if the parents were titled from the APLA. told me he got the pup from a guy in valparaiso and did not know about the APLA. I have never heard of the guy (which doesn't mean much) but makes me wonder about these so called pointing labs and their abilities.

hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island

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08/28/2008 12:25 PM	Alert
Posted By duckheads on 08/28/2008 12:17 PM defininetly other markets out there i guess. one of our older members of hrc shows up to a meeting with a new pup. i talked to him a little bit and he says its a pointing lab. i ask him where he got the pup and if the parents were titled from the APLA. told me he got the pup from a guy in valparaiso and did not know about the APLA. I have never heard of the guy (which doesn't mean much) but makes me wonder about these so called pointing labs and their abilities. There was at least one thread on another forum about which "non-PL" studs throw point. Several people posted bloodlines that we don't see here. APLA is trying to become the testing organization for PLs-but it's members certainly doesn't have the only pointing labs. I saw a "traditional" looking lab-big, heavy black male-point chukkar at a hunt club up here. He was "just some guy's dog"-but he got the job done.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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08/28/2008 1:33 PM	Alert
The last two PL's I got for free! Lot's of well known field trial dogs on the topside with a couple of well known titled PL's and nothing but untitled local hunting dogs on the bottom side. Funny thing is...they point better than either of the high dollar big name pedigree dogs I paid big bucks for!! I guess you don't always get what you pay for!

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

Top Dog Kennels
South Dakota

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08/28/2008 2:31 PM	Alert
There's always exceptions to the rule. I've seen some nice points out of labs that didnt come from "PL lines". Is our (APLA) goal more members or more and better PL's?

"Gettin' Straight To the Point"

quackdaddy

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08/28/2008 2:42 PM	Alert
Well, the economy is obviously a factor in all markets, but I also wonder how much the EIC dust-up has caused potential buyers to wait for results. It certainly would me if I were in the market. Which brings up another issue altogether. Buyers are EXPECTING a lot more than they used to when they bought a pup. Now, a breeder's pups are assumed positive until proven negative for EIC, CNM, hips, elbows, eyes, PRCD, and what else? None of these tests are free or easy to obtain. An unconditional return policy? Oh, and a pointing guarantee too? Microchips, dewclaws, 1st and 2nd shots, bird exposure, etc. I am all about producing the finest, well-adjusted, healthy, talented pups, but if the buyer is not willing to accept any of the risk, the price of the pup has to go up. Do those $500 setters come with such guarantees and health testing? I did a quick check of stud fees- a primary factor in pup prices in any breed. CP studs $500-750. GMPR studs $1000-1500. I have sold 2 litters of pups during my 10 year APLA membership and was among the first of the $1000+ litters. My stud fees were $1200 and $1000 respectively. I haven't kept accurate accounting records on my dogs and for good reason. If my wife had any inkling of how much money I have spent on them not to mention time.....well.....my books would have a great deal of red ink on them. I don't know how breeders with low prices make it unless they invest little in their dogs, sell volume, or both. Having said all that, I do think pup prices are too high for both CP and GMPR breedings. So are stud fees, tests entry fees, health clearance tests, and well, just about everything. High CP prices encourage GMPR breeders to bump up their price because they deserve more than a CP breeder. But what breeder will bother with it all if the costs of producing an excellent litter if they can't cover expenses, and still get stuck with a pup or four that they can't move. I am sure there are big and little breeders alike asking themselves that lately.

Larry Moderator
Independence, KS

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08/28/2008 2:44 PM	Alert
TDK, You couldn't have put it any better!!! EXCEPTIONS ARE NOT THE RULE. In my mine the APLA's mission is to get better and more consistent pointing labrador retrievers through this identifying of PL. And accomplished through testing and members breeding for the better PL.

Larry, the pointing lab enthusiast GMPR HRCH Raider's Jumpin Jack Flash MH Master National Hall of Fame 4xGMPR HRCH Cypress Creek Harleys MS Mac MH Master National Hunter MPR HR HPK Good Golly Miss Molly SH 3xNBDCA Ch. APR Jack's Bin Der Dun Dat JH

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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08/28/2008 2:58 PM	Alert
Posted By 2Blackdogs! on 08/28/2008 9:31 AM So how the heck is limiting the field to raise the selling price of pups going to help the APLA Grow? I am not for more regulations af any kind. I opposed the 1cp dog rule and the health rules to advertise to be truthful-and you all know that no one is probably more concerned on labrador health and avoiding genetic issues then me. I believe in educating those that will bother to try to learn and letting as wide an audience participate. No matter what you do it is a buyer beware world. Anyway at this point I would not repeal the existing rules but adding more seems counter productive to the group as a whole. Steve I agree with you we dont need any more rules here! My breedings of my females and males will be set to my standards though, and I will not look outside the APLA for a stud dog, or a bitch to breed Jake too, I think everybody is hanging on to there money right now waiting to see what is going to happen with this election, and then I think stuff will break loose, People are alittle gunshy right now about our economy!! Incuding myself....

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

mb4czech
Junction City, KS

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08/28/2008 3:51 PM	Alert
Well, here is my 2-cents. 1st, I think if someone is a member of the APLA they can/should post a litter in the classifieds. 2nd, if one person wants more $ for a "equal" titled breeding, so be it....that's why we live in the USA, you may not pay for it but maybe I will. I believe that the APLA should attempt to both improve PL's and attract more members.....how to do that.....breed intelligently(each his own) and appeal to MORE people, the HUGE variances in prices may do that. The one thing I do know is that I have far more fun at APLA events than I have had at any other hnt tests, and that's what we have going....good people, good dogs, like has been said it's up to a buyer to reasearch and decide....

-CPR Highpoint's Mellow Yellow Quinn -Poudre River's Blowin 'n' Goin Springtime Lilly -No Fences Allowed, 100% Wild Outdoors-

Paco
On a stream in NW,MI.

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08/28/2008 6:25 PM	Alert
Posted By Top Dog Kennels on 08/28/2008 2:31 PM There's always exceptions to the rule. I've seen some nice points out of labs that didnt come from "PL lines". Is our (APLA) goal more members or more and better PL's? Hmmm! I've been seeing it,and might add more intense than a good amount of others that are from pointing background.There is one way to a better pl,,,,and as I've stated on another thread,people have got to be honest about the dogs they are breeding,or thinking/dreaming of breeding.Pair the best you can..The "point"is only part of it,albeit important,,,I'm all for the all around talented hunting/retrieving labs..... I'd like to add,that this is one of the better discussions of late. Paco

Association of the MM,and proud member of Team RUN-N-GUN--- GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "Gator" and introducing--CPR HRK's Liberators Outlaw"Rondo"

Iowa Hunter
Iowa

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08/28/2008 6:52 PM	Alert
The economy is going to definately play a role in all this. I will play devils advocate and say that money will play a role in the number of titled dogs. From personal experience I have spent mucho money for a teacher and full time grad student on dogs to see little titles because it flat out costs $ to run, and less to train. I have dogs that are qualified to run lots of events, but money and time limits me on putting titles on dogs. I can run alot within a half hour of my house, otherwise send them out for 30 days here and there which is tough I am finding out to put titles on a dog. I am not bragging, but very willing to train anyday with anyone and would love to learn more about thepointing lab world! I have some dogs that I am proud of but are not APLA titled, does that not mean they are not good dogs. NO! But I am going to start running APLA this fall, but it is going to only be one dog at at time because of the economy and well dollars and cents...So in time I would like to have a couple of GMPR QAA dogs and I will they just may be 5 or 6 when it happens. So take a look at dogs around you no title does not mean it is not a good dog! If you know much about dogs it will not take long to find a good one. The best dog I have owned yet was out of a JH, which is not saying much, but she threw a good dog for me. Take a look at the parents and the key to good dogs, find a phoenomenal bitch line! Good luck and hopefully we are all breeding to produce good dogs, not $$

ahayes

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08/28/2008 7:09 PM	Alert
I have hesitated to post but here is my two cents as well. I have been an APLA member for two years. I have three dogs all which have been sired by GMPR. I bought one at an auction for $325, one for $1200, and my last for $1500. I bought my last two as an investment for breeding and playing the games,as well for hunting. I hope the price for these Pls stay up. Before anyone thinks I'm wealthy I'm not. I believe that these dogs are special and probally health tested more than others or will be, so why not pay more. I know most will disagree just my hopes.

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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08/28/2008 8:04 PM	Alert
Good point Iowahunter! It costs 140 bucks for a master test, and if you go out on the water or land series you never see the birds you payed for, A AKC test is only 65 bucks, So I do understand your pain,

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

oakcreeklabs
Moundridge Kansas

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08/28/2008 8:24 PM	Alert
I have been talking about pup prices for a couple of years now. The high prices are not helping in the development of top pointing Labradors. Would you cull a pup if you already had a buyer on him for $1700? Or would you be more likely to cull if your litter was sold for $700. Both are taking a chunk out of your wallet, but dollar signs commonly out weight sense. I have had to cull more GMPR sired pups then anything on this place. I think more of us could benefit from culling through litters (in whatever way you see fit) to give the public only the best of a specific litter. I just can't hardly believe that people get suckered into buying $1800 pups out of parents which are both alive, possibly unproven, or so on. I could understand if you were using a $3000 straw of Grits semen, but come on. Plain and simple, not every pup born deserves to be placed in a hunting home. We as breeders need to be able to know our litters well enough, and have enough understanding of bird dogs to make culls early on. And these high prices aren't helping. Just my $.02 To the actual first posted question, I think the economy is playing a big role. I have a litter on the ground right now out of a MH QAA son of FC AFC Dare to Dream out of my GMPR High Seirra Kodiac bitch, they are for sale at $500, about $250 less then my normal asking price. I think the economy is moving some people away from hunting, the gas prices will cut into my long distance hunting or waterfowl trips. I know a few guys that didn't even go out last year because of gas, they for sure won't make it out this year. Things are just a little ruff all around right now, hopefully things get lined out so we can start to enjoy our recreation without the nagging thought of the money we had to spend to make it happen

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Forums > American Pointing Labrador Association > General > PL Market Saturated?