Rob G
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| 08/27/2008 5:03 AM |
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I was just checking out some of the pup ads in the classifieds and noticed the asking price for pups seems to be quite less than in recent years. Not a scientific study or anything, but the amount of pups going for $1,000 and up is way down. I know the occasional 'high powered' breedings are still being presold and going for top dollar, but as a whole the prices seem to be quite lower.
Is this a result of the economy (less people spending money on hobbies) or is it that the amount of PL litters being produced has flooded the market?...or both?
Are the days of litters from two CPR dogs with "champion lines" going for over $1,000 finally over? What do you breeders think? Is it harder to sell pups currently?
Just curious....
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redlabelgs
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| 08/27/2008 9:09 AM |
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There could be numerous reasons for somewhat lower priced pups. One big factor is timing,this is usually a slower time of the year to sell pups. There are plenty of cp litters out there which may have lowered prices for that type of breedings as you said. I do think the quality breedings may also take somewhat of a drop in price but the best breedings will hold their values because they simply are worth their price.
I do feel there are some great pairings out there that are under priced simply because the breeders are relatively unknown. Which I certainy understand. lThere are getting to be more gmpr dogs out there which may also be a factor in litter prices. Economic factors as you suggested can also be a big factor.
I wonder where the market will go also. I look for the CP x CP quality breedings to become more dependant on parrents that are true hunting dogs because those are the people purchasing those pups.
I hope some of the number of added litters out there are from an increase in pointing lab enthusiasts and that our dog of choice is becomming more popular. If so lets welcome new enthusiasts whole heartedly. IMHO
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Larry Moderator
Independence, KS
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| 08/27/2008 9:37 AM |
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Are there more enthusiasts? I feel yes. Is there more members? No, membership is about the same number year on year. Or, is this like the latest labradoodle or emu craze?
Yes, there are a lot PL litters out there. And you are right the CP x CP would be a minimum of any knowledgeable person's choice. But, the only one PL parent litter ads are aimed at the new and often unknowing buyers. Lord knows, all of us are fixed up with plenty of our own PLs and we are not buying any of these breedings.
Are we serving in fairness our membership that trains and certify their dogs pointing ability, when we allow "PL litters" to only have one PL parent? My answer is our membership isn't being served fairly? Also, I believe we fail our APLA mission statement of "promoting and improving the pointing lab" by allowing advertising of only one parent being PL titled. Should the breeder's advertising standard be changed to allow for CPR x CPR as minimum titles for both parent?? |
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Larry, the pointing lab enthusiast
GMPR HRCH Raider's Jumpin Jack Flash MH Master National Hall of Fame
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 08/27/2008 10:41 AM |
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| Nice points Larry! When and if I use Jake as a stud dog for others, I will require the female to be titled CPR or better! And I will only breed my females to a MPR or better, unless I have seen the male and it is no less than a APR, I think CP to Cp is OK but should not get the same price as a GMPR . JMO Kevin |
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redlabelgs
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| 08/27/2008 3:15 PM |
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| Just for the sake of debate what about a breeding of FC AFC Downtown Dusty Brown x a CP dam. That breeding has proven to produce dogs that will promote and improve pointing labs. |
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Top Dog Kennels
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| 08/27/2008 3:33 PM |
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Posted By redlabelgs on 08/27/2008 3:15 PM
Just for the sake of debate what about a breeding of FC AFC Downtown Dusty Brown x a CP dam. That breeding has proven to produce dogs that will promote and improve pointing labs.
Scott..........is this a hypothetical breeding or one thats happened in the past? 
If it happened in the past.........well........I think $300 per pup sounds about right.
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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
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| 08/27/2008 4:23 PM |
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I think it's too hard to use titles to 'filter' a PL's quality. Too many quality dogs that have never been tested or tested in other venues (i.e. FC AFC).
However, on the other hand, this is 'The APLA' website, so it makes sense that all dogs being advertised should have a CPR title at least...
Too many restrictions could drive even more PL enthusiasts away from the APLA...
...interesting...
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| 08/27/2008 4:43 PM |
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A short answer to the question:
Yes I think it is.
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"Gettin' Straight To the Point" |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 08/27/2008 5:01 PM |
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| Rob, there are probably alot of outstanding dogs that are never titled, but you cant work with those dogs, I would bet that out of a litter of 8, 2 to 3 dogs on average even are registered with AKC if that. |
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 08/27/2008 5:17 PM |
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There is more than one PL market, if you think about it. There are the people who just want a good all around hunting and family dog; there are the people who want a hunting dog and want to play the dog games on the off season; there are people who want a dog that will compete, and maybe hunt some along the way; there are people who want a dog to have every possible ribbon and title-and others, too. That doesn't even take into account the different types of breeders-big kennels, serious hobby breeders, people who want to breed a nice dog once or twice...
Prices are what the market will bear. Everyone has a different idea of what expensive it; what "worth the money" is. Titles are what buyers who can't see the dogs work use to know whether or not a dog is trainable to perform certain tasks. I have learned one thing-there is a BIG difference in the skill level needed for the Junior level titles (JH, SHR, CP, etc.) and the Senior level titles. I have also seen that it is pretty easy, with a good, willing dog, to get titles at that level-and pretty easy to pass with a dog that really isn't very talented. If I were looking, a dog that had lots of busy, successful hunting seasons under it's belt would carry more weight with me than a young dog with a junior level title and not much experience in the field.
Is the PL market saturated? Yes. I think the puppy market as a whole is saturated. There are more pups out there, of many breeds, than there are people who really want them. If dogs had 2-4 pups in a litter instead of an average of 8, things would be different.
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Doc_E
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| 08/27/2008 6:13 PM |
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Posted By Rob G on 08/27/2008 4:23 PM
I think it's too hard to use titles to 'filter' a PL's quality. Too many quality dogs that have never been tested or tested in other venues (i.e. FC AFC).
However, on the other hand, this is 'The APLA' website, so it makes sense that all dogs being advertised should have a CPR title at least...
Too many restrictions could drive even more PL enthusiasts away from the APLA...
...interesting...
Correct on all three (four) points.
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 08/27/2008 7:16 PM |
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| I know it won't be popular but I do not agree with Minimum CPRxCPR. We do not need the gene pool getting more and more limited. We do not need the PL to be some kind of exclusive club. This only serves the bigger breeders for the most part. |
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redlabelgs
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| 08/27/2008 8:41 PM |
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| LeRoy, Yep, Did you say you are going to do it again for 300 each, Ill take eight. You might be able to covered costs for the breeding. |
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redlabelgs
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| 08/27/2008 8:52 PM |
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| I agree 2BD. I wonder where we would be without genes from FC's like Jazztime, Rebel, Bold Tiger, Piper, ect ect. |
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stuw
North Central Minnesota
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| 08/27/2008 9:17 PM |
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I'm both sides of the fence here.. as a board member I believe that if your a member in good standing...you should be able to post a litter that complies with the policy we now have in place.. which states that only one parent needs to be titled with the APLA..
The other side of Me wishes, hopes, and wants that if we are here to "promote" pointing labs..than why would we not want BOTH parents of a litter to be title with the APLA..
I have a dog that both parents are 4xGMPRS.. there is not many of those out there.. do I think my dog is special?? noway..she still needs to prove to me and the APLA community that she is something special.. I will strive to title her above and beyond the CPR title which she now has.. and when I breed her..it will be to a stud dog that will only make her pedigree all that much better..
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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO
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| 08/28/2008 4:23 AM |
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I see both sides of the issue as well...however...
Before raising the requirement for CPR X CPR minimum, we'd better be sure that that type of breeding produces all pointing litters...if not, what is the motive for raising the requirement.
If the motive is to 'protect' the consumer from falling prey to false claims of PL pups, can we be sure that ALL CPR X CPR breedings produce PL pups? I think the main trouble with PL's today is the WIDE range of pointing ablility (in combination with all of the other skills we want our dogs to have too). Unless we can find out what combination of titles produce the pups we'd give our stamp of approval to, I'm not sure what raising the requirement to CPR X CPR would actually do (other than drive more PL enthusiasts away from the APLA - to form their own anti APLA PL sub-group (Oh yeah, that already exists)).
Buying PL pups will always be a buyer beware type of purchase, IMO. What I think the APLA should be trying to do is to educate Joe Buyer as to what to look for, what questions to ask, and what to REQUIRE from breeders. Education is a buyers greatest asset. Changing the minimum to CPR X CPR does nothing but make the APLA look more elitist, IMNSHO.  |
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keskam
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| 08/28/2008 5:12 AM |
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| Very good points, I do agree with both sides here, I am striving for the all around package, I see a few breeders that get there dogs titled in all the tests (AKC,HRC,APLA,NAHRA) so you know these dogs can do the work and are highly trainable, I just dont want a one sided dog that is upland only I dont want to loose the lab personality, I want a complete package. |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
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Farmer
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| 08/28/2008 6:28 AM |
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I know I am going to step on some toes here but I can't take it anymore.
Draw the timeline.....The board implemented 4X GMPR and price of pups skyrocketed. Same genetics and same dogs that were GMPR, but now a pup from this breeding is worth alot more.
Now there are alot more people enjoying titling CP, APR, MPR dogs and so on and also hunting these dogs and maybe having a litter or two......just what I thought the APLA wanted...to grow the organization. (Remember these are alot of the same genetics that are getting titled to 4GMPR.) so lets now implement a rule change to try and limit the market share to less people. Sounds fishy to me.
This post got started because of an observation about pup prices and started momentum towards what can we do to bring that price up. I'll be ready to chart the timeline after the next rule change takes effect.
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Larry Moderator
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| 08/28/2008 8:35 AM |
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Great discussion.
Occassionally, myself and other people can take 2 plus 2 and get 5. I hope that this is not the case here. This is a discussion of "is the PL market saturated?". The conclusion was yes. I think we all agree with that, but if not let me know where it isn't and I'll go advertise there.
The number of members has flucuated plus or minus 10% for years, not growing. Actually, membership is down slightly this year. Dog numbers from the spring is up very slightly. Thus, there are not "alot more people enjoying titling CPR, APR and MPR". I conclude there are members running more dogs. So with a "PL saturated market". Could the APLA be more responsible to the APLA members with for classified listings by requiring a minimum of CPR x CPR for the classified? I care about supporting the paying APLA members, not non-APLA PL breeders. To me it is clear to support those members titling their dogs in the APLA. And the one way is to require CPR xCPR minimum titles for classified. |
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Larry, the pointing lab enthusiast
GMPR HRCH Raider's Jumpin Jack Flash MH Master National Hall of Fame
4xGMPR HRCH Cypress Creek Harleys MS Mac MH Master National Hunter
MPR HR HPK Good Golly Miss Molly SH 3xNBDCA Ch.
APR Jack's Bin Der Dun Dat JH |
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Rob G
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| 08/28/2008 9:31 AM |
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Posted By Larry on 08/28/2008 8:35 AM
Great discussion.
Occassionally, myself and other people can take 2 plus 2 and get 5. I hope that this is not the case here. This is a discussion of "is the PL market saturated?". The conclusion was yes. I think we all agree with that, but if not let me know where it isn't and I'll go advertise there.
The number of members has flucuated plus or minus 10% for years, not growing. Actually, membership is down slightly this year. Dog numbers from the spring is up very slightly. Thus, there are not "alot more people enjoying titling CPR, APR and MPR". I conclude there are members running more dogs. So with a "PL saturated market". Could the APLA be more responsible to the APLA members with for classified listings by requiring a minimum of CPR x CPR for the classified? I care about supporting the paying APLA members, not non-APLA PL breeders. To me it is clear to support those members titling their dogs in the APLA. And the one way is to require CPR xCPR minimum titles for classified.
Nice points Larry, and I agree about serving the APLA MEMBERS needs first...that is the boards responsibility.
With membership not growing however, does the APLA need to re-evaluate what it provides the PL community and ask why aren't more and more PL people joining the APLA? I agree that existing members are getting multiple dogs and that would be one reason why membership has not increased alongside PL's being produced and tested. But as long as membership is stagnant, drawing a deeper line in the sand is not the answer. IMO |
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