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redlabelgs
Corsica

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07/15/2008 9:27 PM	Alert
Just wondering about a couple things. 1. Is a dogs test score information the public can see? 2. If its not public information, whats the best way to find out what a dog you own scored in past tests? 3. What would be wrong with printing the total score on the certificate once a dog passes?

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2Blackdogs!
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07/16/2008 3:00 AM	Alert
The best way to find out the score is right at the test by talking to the judges. Beyond that the score itself is not passed on for permanent record-only a pass / fail is sent on to be enterred into the database. So thus there is no way to make a public viewable or privately viewable score later on.

bsmiley
Fishers Indiana

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07/16/2008 2:02 PM	Alert
Judges should keep their score sheets and notes for some reasonable time after the test. I personally do not have a problem with someone calling me up and asking to discuss after the test and have done so several times. I think that is part of the responsibiliy of judging but that is not a requirement in the APLA. It is better though, as Steve mentions, to ask at the test. It is fresh in the judges mind at the time. There can be a lot going on so just ask your judge when it would be convenient for you to discuss. I am not a fan of publishing scores. Although we try to make these tests into as much of a controlled, consistent environment as we can - they are not. You try to make scoring allowances for various environmental factors that may change dog to dog, but inevitably some dogs will have a different situation than others on the same day.

Cody, 2XGMPR, MH Yeager, CPLD (Certified Pointing Lap Dog) Cruz, GMPIA (Grand Master Pain in ...)

Larry Moderator
Independence, KS

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07/18/2008 8:02 AM	Alert
Both Steve and Bruce did an excellent job describing how to get your dog's score at the hunt test after it's conclusion and the awarding of ribbons. I do want to state clearly the dog's owner and/or handler are entitled and welcome to look at their dog's score. But, they are not entitled to look at or compare scores with other dog's scores. Also, all judges don't score identically the same. Actually, the judges don't particularly care if they score identically the same. The judge's sole objective is to use the numerical system to ascertain whether a dog passes or fails a particular element of the test and/or passes or fails the entire test by attaining or exceeding the minimum passing score for that stake. This standard applies to checking your score and not being priviledged to look at other dog's scores in both the AKC and HRC hunt tests,which I've judged for years.

Larry, the pointing lab enthusiast GMPR HRCH Raider's Jumpin Jack Flash MH Master National Hall of Fame 4xGMPR HRCH Cypress Creek Harleys MS Mac MH Master National Hunter MPR HR HPK Good Golly Miss Molly SH 3xNBDCA Ch. APR Jack's Bin Der Dun Dat JH

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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07/18/2008 6:55 PM	Alert
Scores on one given day don't mean very much at all. Let's take just one dog, we'll call him "Alphie"........ At one test, the conditions are rotten and Alphie barely passes. On the next test, conditions are ideal and Alphie has nearly a perfect score. Did Alphie change or did the conditions ? It's pass or fail -- the judges scores make that decision, but the dog's scores on those two different test days might have been markedly different. If Alphie barely passes 6 in a row and all 6 had nasty conditions or if Alphie passes 6 in a row with very high scores and those tests had great conditions, it's still the same dog with the same abilities. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

redlabelgs
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07/21/2008 6:54 AM	Alert
I agree with all that has been said. I was not able to attend the Higgensville test. Troy worked and ran Twig for us,(doing a great job I might add). I thought about the scoring after the fact and just wanted to know if it was apropriate to talk with the judges about the score this long after a test. I am glad to see more tests being held. I do hope the same ellement of commeradery will continue. To answer the question I posed about what would be wrong with posting the dogs scores on the certificate. I feel it would create an element of competition and could put an end to a portion of the fun at the apla events. This is a topic that seems to come up on some of the other org sites. There are many differing opinions. As long as a person can see how their dog is scored. And be able to visit with a judge collectivly I see no reason to publicise scores.

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grousecreek

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07/21/2008 4:14 PM	Alert
the posting of test scores,as is done in NAVHDA,is a great tool to help a buyerfind a breeder.It is also useful when looking for a stud.If all scores are postedin order of test location,you get an apple to apple comparison.It benefits the novice,and helps us to make a better choice when purchasing the pup,or breeding.I believe testing and posting scores will give APLA more credibility ,and come closer in line with other pointing dog groups.

Top Dog Kennels
South Dakota

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07/21/2008 5:28 PM	Alert
I think there is too much variance in how judges score (just like Larry already said). Even though some events are at the same locations conditions can change greatly from spring to fall----year to year etc.

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Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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07/21/2008 5:29 PM	Alert
Posted By grousecreek on 07/21/2008 4:14 PM ...If all scores are postedin order of test location,you get an apple to apple comparison.It benefits the novice,and helps us to make a better choice when purchasing the pup,or breeding... I disagree...conditions can change drastically throughout the same day. Think about dogs that get to run early when it is cool and there is a light breeze vs. dogs that run later in intense heat with no wind and a lot planter/dog/bird scent left all over the field from previous runs. Using a dogs score regardless of comparison to other dogs scores, is not a good way to evaluate one dog over another, IMO. What about a so/so dog that gets the benefit of good conditions and scores higher than an exceptional dog that struggles to find scent in different conditions? If scores are used to 'evaluate' a dog's worth, I think the evaluation would be skewed. These tests are pass/fail, not a ranking system. I don't think the APLA's credibilty would be helped by posting scores. Rob

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

Paco
On a stream in NW,MI.

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07/21/2008 5:34 PM	Alert
Posted By grousecreek on 07/21/2008 4:14 PM the posting of test scores,as is done in NAVHDA,is a great tool to help a buyerfind a breeder.It is also useful when looking for a stud.If all scores are postedin order of test location,you get an apple to apple comparison.It benefits the novice,and helps us to make a better choice when purchasing the pup,or breeding.I believe testing and posting scores will give APLA more credibility ,and come closer in line with other pointing dog groups. Interesting, I have mixed opinions with this.What scores are we talking about?All the dogs,or just those that pass?My dog hasn't passed on a number of occasions,but still seemed to get some attention,I believe even from you Grousecreek,on a day he failed.I do like the last line. As stated,the conditions do change(even by the minute),boy do I know that.Think the APLA needs get the backing of a sanctioning body to gain any big respect,and that seems pretty remote,or far off(IMO). Paco

Association of the MM,and proud member of Team RUN-N-GUN--- GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "Gator" and introducing--CPR HRK's Liberators Outlaw"Rondo"

2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!

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07/21/2008 7:43 PM	Alert
I don't know about helping with credibility-posted scores would probably just give folks more things to get all fired up about on these public forums although I can see why a novice or anyone for that matter could use it as another input on future selection. What would really help the APLA would be if #1 everyone on the forums actually became a member. #2 if the same everyone actually went to at least one event each spring and fall to atleast watch if not even help. In doing #2 the novice will wear off quickly,especially if involved helping at the events.

keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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07/21/2008 7:43 PM	Alert
Posted By grousecreek on 07/21/2008 4:14 PM the posting of test scores,as is done in NAVHDA,is a great tool to help a buyerfind a breeder.It is also useful when looking for a stud.If all scores are postedin order of test location,you get an apple to apple comparison.It benefits the novice,and helps us to make a better choice when purchasing the pup,or breeding.I believe testing and posting scores will give APLA more credibility ,and come closer in line with other pointing dog groups. Rob is right on BUT forgot about the handler, You have to realize dogs have good and bad days and us handlers have good and bad days to! My thinking the way the tests are now if you put a MPR on a dog HE IS A KEEPER!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

Liv2Hnt
Overland Park, KS

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07/22/2008 10:35 AM	Alert
Its not a competition and there are probably too many variables to consider when comparing scores, but there may be some use in posting pass fail rates for dogs. One of the main purposes of the organization is to promote pointing labs and continue to breed dogs with this great characteristic. Something to consider is posting the dogs APLA HT history with the database. Not just when they passed, but how many they entered and the pass rate of the event. Does information on dog who passes 4 out of 4 APLA tests vs a dog that takes 12 times to pass a master test mean something to a potential buyer. Probably. Does knowing if it was the only master dog to pass a test mean something? Is it subjective? certainly, but I think it could be valuable information to help us promote these great animals.

Proud Owner of: MPR HR McNally's Right Stuff Ridley

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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07/22/2008 11:30 AM	Alert
I just don't see how this information would be useful in choosing a dog. If I was serious about my research, I would make sure I actually saw the parents work in person; not use titles or lack thereof form my basis of opinion. As Keskam pointed out, how many marvelous dogs are the victims of novice handlers? On the flip side, how many so/so dogs benefit from professional training and handling? I learn more about a dog by watching him/her run in person than I could ever learn by looking at a dog's pass/fail rate or test scores. As Paco mentioned, his Gator does not have a stellar pass/fail rate, but from the videos I've seen posted of him and based on comments posted about him, I'd guess he's a pretty great dog! I've personally seen dog's blow out and fail a test that I'd be the first in line to have a pup out of over a few I've seen pass. It all comes down to personal taste and each dog's STYLE. Scores and pass/fail rates tell nothing of the dog's STYLE, INTENSITY, DRIVE, etc...all factors more important to me than titles. JMNSHO! Rob

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

Paco
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07/22/2008 1:06 PM	Alert
Posted By Rob G on 07/22/2008 11:30 AM I just don't see how this information would be useful in choosing a dog. If I was serious about my research, I would make sure I actually saw the parents work in person; not use titles or lack thereof form my basis of opinion. As Keskam pointed out, how many marvelous dogs are the victims of novice handlers? On the flip side, how many so/so dogs benefit from professional training and handling? I learn more about a dog by watching him/her run in person than I could ever learn by looking at a dog's pass/fail rate or test scores. I've personally seen dog's blow out and fail a test that I'd be the first in line to have a pup out of over a few I've seen pass. It all comes down to personal taste and each dog's STYLE. Scores and pass/fail rates tell nothing of the dog's STYLE, INTENSITY, DRIVE, etc...all factors more important to me than titles. JMNSHO! Rob I think most serious dog folks would agree with that,nicely said.Oh! and I would only add,try and get to see them actually hunt if possible.Titles do help in the steering of the research to be sure.---I've talked to grousecreek,a time or two and was very impressed, he's checking out the PLs,a good dog guy.He could add some positive stuff to APLA,and PLs in general.We need his kind(pointer guy) and his experience and honesty.Besides,he liked my dog,so he's OK in my book. Paco

Association of the MM,and proud member of Team RUN-N-GUN--- GMPR HRCH Fraquelli's Sauble River "Gator" and introducing--CPR HRK's Liberators Outlaw"Rondo"

redlabelgs
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07/22/2008 9:27 PM	Alert
What Paco said. Only thing about hunting with the parents is it could take thousands of miles and what if you are buyiny a pup in say August. The pairing may not have been let decided on durring the last hunting season.

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Liv2Hnt
Overland Park, KS

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07/23/2008 8:14 AM	Alert
I can tell you Im a pretty serious dog person and I use titles to narrow down my search when looking for a prospective breeding to get a pup out of. I agree titles dont tell you everything and Ive seen very mediocre dogs with alot of titles and Ive seen a very few great ones without any. Overall, though on the average, the titles demonstrate the work a dog is capable of doing. I make every effort to see the dogs work, but I think most people are not able to see both parents work, especially hunt wild birds and most of the time you are pretty fortunate if both sire and dam are even on the property. Providing the overall history of a dog would be of benefit to most buyers and probably most breeders. Everything doesnt have to be black and white and the info could be another piece of the decision making process. I think if you put the pass/fail record of the dogs and also the overall pass % of the event, that would be valuable information and another tool in evaluating a dog for a potential buyer of pups.

Proud Owner of: MPR HR McNally's Right Stuff Ridley

TC
Apple Valley, Minnesota

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07/23/2008 4:18 PM	Alert
I'm absolutely opposed to posting test scores. Can you imagine the Monday-morning quarterbacking that would take place if word got out that one dog scored a couple of points higher than another at a test? No two tests are the same, and conditions or circumstances can change quite a bit from dog to dog at the same test. As a judge, I've had quite a few people talk to me asking to see their score sheet. I encourage people to talk to their judges about their dog (please wait until the end of the day). Don't worry about the score as much as what the judge's impression of how the dog did, and where improvement might be needed before stepping up to the next level. Maybe the judge saw something that you didn't think he/she saw, or something that you yourself didn't know was an issue? A title only tells you so much about a dog. More advanced titles and titles in multiple organizations tell you that the dog is capable of doing consistently good work. I've seen some REALLY NICE dogs fail tests, and I've seen some pretty marginal dogs pass tests (I'm not only talking about APLA). There's no substitute for seeing a test for yourself. It's amazing to me that a lot of APLA critics have never been to an APLA test.

Rob G
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07/23/2008 8:42 PM	Alert
Posted By TC on 07/23/2008 4:18 PM I'm absolutely opposed to posting test scores. Can you imagine the Monday-morning quarterbacking that would take place if word got out that one dog scored a couple of points higher than another at a test? No two tests are the same, and conditions or circumstances can change quite a bit from dog to dog at the same test. As a judge, I've had quite a few people talk to me asking to see their score sheet. I encourage people to talk to their judges about their dog (please wait until the end of the day). Don't worry about the score as much as what the judge's impression of how the dog did, and where improvement might be needed before stepping up to the next level. Maybe the judge saw something that you didn't think he/she saw, or something that you yourself didn't know was an issue? A title only tells you so much about a dog. More advanced titles and titles in multiple organizations tell you that the dog is capable of doing consistently good work. I've seen some REALLY NICE dogs fail tests, and I've seen some pretty marginal dogs pass tests (I'm not only talking about APLA). There's no substitute for seeing a test for yourself. It's amazing to me that a lot of APLA critics have never been to an APLA test. Well said!

Home of: CPR Bearpoint's Top Gun "Maverick" PRG's Hunter's Lullaby "Cricket" CPR Sam's Jumpin Jack Flash "Jack"

Liv2Hnt
Overland Park, KS

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07/24/2008 8:55 AM	Alert
I agree with Troy. I think posting the actual score would put way too much pressure on the judges. Again, not a competition. I can also say from experience that that the judges I have been in front of have all been very good about sharing information on the performance of my dog. I was interested more in ways to improve and move to the next level. This went both for APLA and HRC. I still think a pass fail record as a part of the database would be relevent information. By posting both if the dog passed and the overall pass % of the test you would get a feel for the test without being there. I know when you run an HRC test they post the pass fail and the rate. This info is subject to interpretation, but why not give that info if its available. I dont get why the pass/fail record of a dog shouldnt be shared. Granted there are things that happen at test day, we all know that, but what does it hurt if members are interested in that info and potential buyers of pups express an interest in the APLA providing additional info on the testing of these dogs?

Proud Owner of: MPR HR McNally's Right Stuff Ridley

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