keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 07/10/2008 1:59 PM |
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People are getting way wrapped up with EIC or are alittle worried . Does everybody rate EIC ahead of CNM or Hip Dyspasia? I put it at the bottom of my list because a dog can live out his or her life with it, were as HD can leave a dog in pain from a young pup. I put HD at the top right along with CNM. I have never had a dog with EIC and if I did it might change my thinking, What is your thoughts on these flaws in our dogs? Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 07/10/2008 2:31 PM |
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Some dogs can live out their lives with EIC, but there will be things they cannot do-like hunt, or train, or swim...and some die. You need to become informed, especially if you are breeding dogs. There are links to all these diseases on this site, on the classifieds page. There are videos of dogs affected with this disease on the internet-search on RTF.
The thing is, we can test for CNM, PRA, and soon EIC, and never breed dogs that will create another affected dog ever again. I think that is everyone's responsibility. We can't do that with HD, because we don't have a test, so we try to breed dogs with a history of good hips to lessen the chances of problems. The goal is not to decide which is "worse", or to "rate" these diseases-the goal is to breed dogs who won't have a disease. |
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 07/10/2008 3:18 PM |
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Actually I am probably more informed than alot of vets. I have built buidings for some vets and talked to countless others about EIC. Out of 14 vets 10 heard of it but never had a case, 1 was actually doing some research on it, and 2 had no clue what EIC was! 1 vet had a case he thought or could have been heat related, If 40% of the dogs are carriers you would think that with the amount of breedings that take place in a calander year there would be thousands of effected pups.  If that were the case this EIC thing would be in a class of a epedemic. Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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Ruby's pal
SW Oregon
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| 07/10/2008 5:00 PM |
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Kevin,
When I was talking with Dr. Susan Taylor about her research she told me that she figured that many dogs that are affected with EIC never get the mix of excitement and exercise needed to induce a collapse. Think about the majority of the house pet labs and this may be the case.
For many field labs running marks is not enough excitement to trigger an episode. My Shelby can run marks many times and not trigger an episode, but get her in an upland field and 10 to 15 minutes later we will be taking a rest because she is in an episode..... She will have episodes running on soccer fields, or in the back yard competing with other dogs for retrieves, but is OK for the most part in the duck blind with few retrieves on a pond. I would never hunt her on a river, or big water because swimming after a cripple would throw her in an episode real fast. For the same reason we don't let her run free on most beaches...
I agree that most Vets don't know about it. My Vet didn't know about it when I brought Shelby to him. I spent several hours with him educating him and giving him contact info for Dr Taylor and others so he could get up to speed....
Luckily the testing will allow breeders to make educated decisions and hopefully not create pups with these testable diseases.
Pat
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Lord may I be half the man that my dogs think that I am! |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 07/10/2008 8:12 PM |
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| My vet really did not know about EIC or CNM or much about PRA either. He was intriged by all this and did the swabbing and blood drawing for free and eagerly read the stuff I gave him on these topics. He was really into seeing the healthy litter we produced free of all this crap. The help went nuts over the basket of 10 puppies that came in at 7am on day 2 or 3 to get checked out and dew claws removed....everytime we came in there was talk of all the genetic checks that were done. |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 07/10/2008 9:57 PM |
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Very interesting that of all people vets are the least informed. So if vets are that far out of the loop, how about the general public? They may think EIC is a government agency!! . |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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311Hemi
Mounds View, MN
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| 07/11/2008 6:08 AM |
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Posted By Ruby's pal on 07/10/2008 5:00 PM
Kevin,
When I was talking with Dr. Susan Taylor about her research she told me that she figured that many dogs that are affected with EIC never get the mix of excitement and exercise needed to induce a collapse. Think about the majority of the house pet labs and this may be the case.
For many field labs running marks is not enough excitement to trigger an episode. My Shelby can run marks many times and not trigger an episode, but get her in an upland field and 10 to 15 minutes later we will be taking a rest because she is in an episode....
I agree that most Vets don't know about it.
Luckily the testing will allow breeders to make educated decisions and hopefully not create pups with these testable diseases.
Pat
I agree with all said here, and this is my experience as well. I have to watch my Kash when we first start upland hunting for a weekend. If we get into a field with a lot of scent and he has not previously been hunting in a few days (and it's a bit warmer out) there is a good chance of him collapsing. Now, I could take him and hunt that same field a day later and most likely not have an issue.....but that's because the previous day has slowed and tired him enough that he does not work as hard. His only triggers have been when he is full of energy and has not been run, and can go full blast non stop for a good amount of time. Once he tires he hunts slower and more methodically and I don't have to worry.
I will tell you....it sucks to have a dog go down because of EIC. Down right scary the first time you see it. I will also say that it SUCKS ever more to have to retire your hunting partner early because of joint issues (both parents OFA'd good for hips/elbows). 3.5 years old and will not be doing much upland hunting after this season...and will be limited this season. My dogs EIC triggers are not very serious and can be controlled for the most part, but there are dogs that cannot hunt because of it. Because of these exact things I do not think they neccessarily can be rated best to worst. I would rather have a dog with controlable EIC (not very affected) and no joint issues, but then again I would rather have joint issues than a dog that is severly affected by EIC and cannot hunt or retrieve. I think CNM probably would be above both and thankfully there is a test out for that....but that rank really doesn't mean much because these things should be tested for as much as possible.
As far as the general publics awareness of EIC is concerned, my experiences show little to no awareness of EIC. I post on some other MN forums in hunting dog sections and people have described issues with their dogs that resemble EIC. I have informed them about what to discuss with their vet or the U of MN and low and behold these dogs were tested "affected" by the U of MN. I would say this happened at least 3 times on that one forum alone. Another guy in a club I am in recently had his dog go down. He was not aware of what EIC was until he had a reason to look into it.......and unfortunatley his dog was also "affected". The general public has no awareness of this and IMO wont until they have a reason to. I bet you could call all the adds in the Sunday paper and maybe one of 40 adds might know of it. But those same people probably don't do health checks before breeding anyways...........
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Doc_E
N.E. WA state
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| 07/11/2008 6:14 AM |
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Each genetic disease is the "worst", depending on the aspect that you are looking at it from
CHD & EIC both have varying degrees of 'affected'. Anywhere from affected with no symptoms to affected to the point that they need to be put down. If a dog is CNM affected, it will (virtually 100% of the time) either die or be put down by age two. It is said that some 40% of dogs are at least carriers of EIC, so if we look at the total number of dogs with a genetic defect, then it might come in first place.
Which defect is worst depends on which direction you are coming from oand which direction you are looking.
. |
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Doc E and Cujo Casey boy. |
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311Hemi
Mounds View, MN
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| 07/11/2008 6:30 AM |
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Also...this 40% was based on limited samples from limited regions and may be totally off when considering the breed as a whole. Not that it means much to this discussion.....
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VicR
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| 07/11/2008 11:57 AM |
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A friend hunting buddy of mine had a dog with EIC. First exhibited itself when the dog was 4 years old as we were Blue Grouse hunting. We freaked out because we did not know what was happening, scary to see a dog convulse like that. Took him to the vet, that's when the symptoms indicated and the vet deduced EIC. Put him on some drugs to try to help the dog (forgot what it was, but didn't work). He tried taking him out to do some short upland runs, but it got worse/sooner. Finally he just left the dog at home. By tyhe time the dog was 6-7 years old even just playing fetch with the dog made him go into convulsions.
So, I would not want that in a dog.
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 07/11/2008 12:41 PM |
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| There are some very good posts thank you! Now how can we get the general public aware of these problems? That is why I like this forum, there are some very good breeders here that have there dogs tested, But there are hundreds if not thousands of breeders slamming puppys out with no health guarentees, no tests done whatsoever that sell for 100 to 300 dollars and people buy them thinking they are getting a deal. It is not fair to the people and it is especially not fair to the dogs IMO, So how can we all get together stand up and be counted, and get things to change? Kevin |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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TC
Apple Valley, Minnesota
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| 07/11/2008 3:17 PM |
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Posted By hooligan on 07/10/2008 2:31 PM
The thing is, we can test for CNM, PRA, and soon EIC, and never breed dogs that will create another affected dog ever again. I think that is everyone's responsibility.
You couldn't say it any better. Anybody not willing to take on that responsibility shouldn't be breeding dogs.
As a buyer, you also have the responsibility to not reward people for breeding unhealthy dogs. As a knowledgable pup buyer, I can be 100% sure that my puppy will not have CNM or PRA (and soon EIC). I can also greatly reduce my chances of getting a pup with bad hips, eyes, etc.
It would be great if all vets knew everything. However, when you're going to the vet because your dog collapsed, it's too late.
Buyer beware.
RTF has TONS of great information on EIC. |
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Ruby's pal
SW Oregon
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| 07/11/2008 3:49 PM |
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I find it interesting that some breeders are hiding behind the statement that they don't trust the test, that it hasn't been proven.... I remember the same statements about the CNM test when it first came out....
It will be the buyers that require the testing to help some of the breeders become responsible.....
There are still many different perspectives on this as seen on RTF, PL Forums and here. Over time I sure hope that this test is approved by peer review and that it becomes a standard test for all ethical breeders. We owe it to the breed!
In the mean time it is Buyer beware unfortunatley.....
From frank discussions about EIC, CNM, ect I know which breeders I would consider litters from and wich I wouldn't touch if they offered me a free pup.
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Lord may I be half the man that my dogs think that I am! |
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2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!
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| 07/11/2008 8:33 PM |
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| There you go. |
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keskam
Pierce, Colorado
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| 07/12/2008 7:19 AM |
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| Aug, 1st, 2nd and 3rd the RMPLC will be at Sportsman Warehouse, we will be as Vic puts it showing off some dogs. I wil talk to them about doing a little talk about buying a puppy! At least it will reach a few! |
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HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH
APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH
SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH
SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH
APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH
SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star)
SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie
KB's Black Diamond Tessa |
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hooligan
Southern California and Vancouver Island
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| 07/12/2008 8:10 AM |
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| Great idea, Kevin! |
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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