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Subject: How Do You Rate Tests?

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keskam
Pierce, Colorado

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06/15/2008 7:21 PM	Alert
I here that AKC titles are better for breeders,Dont quite know why!! Mine are in order! 1. APLA Test.. Most demanding 2. HRC Test..Funnest test 3. AKC test..take it or leave it! 4. NARHA test only because I have never done one!

HR Rocky Mountain Rosco JH APR HR Lady Satin of Black Forest JH SHR Satin's Jumpin Jedi JH SHR Chelsea Snow Angel JH APR HR KB's Snakey Jake of Poudre River JH SHR KB's It's Showtime of Bearpoint (Star) SHR KB's Loaded To Go Allie KB's Black Diamond Tessa

tigerliberty
Dundee Michigan

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06/16/2008 8:20 AM	Alert
My perspective: 1.APLA 2. Any Upland Venue NBDCA etc 3. A traditional pointer guy saying you have a nice dog.(don't help sell dogs but its important) 4. AKC and HRC. Breeder / Trainers take: 1.APLA 2. AKC 3. HRC 4. Upland Venue's the funniest is preparing for any test with friends

Association of the MM and member of TEAM RUN-N-GUN, 2.5xGMPR HRCH HRKS DieselSmokin4U 1.5xGMPR HRCH TigerofCattailCorky CPR Liberty and Justice for All- "Libby" The Young Gun's HRK's Liberators Outlaw Jesse James HRK's CPR Rooster Smasher

DWestphal

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06/16/2008 11:45 AM	Alert
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder …or opinions are like…well, you know! ;-) It all depends on what your looking for or where you place value. That will shape what game you gravitate to you more regularly and which one you enjoy more. Speaking for upper level tests: For me, there’s no tougher tests out there then upper level AKC. What they are now asking dogs to do at the Master level is phenomenal and often times bordering on sadistic. The fact that the some dogs can handle it is even more phenomenal. Second is going to be NAHRA. A master level NAHRA test is going to be more similar to a AKC Master test with less emphasis on distance but more emphasis on realism. Your dog will have to have been introduced to mutt hutts to dog platforms to anything else hunting gear related. If there is a test that is specifically designed to make your dog think he’s out hunting…this is it. Your going to get your water/land triples, both blinds an upland portion and also a trail. Not sure how more well rounded your dog needs to be in order to compete. HRC I’ve never run but think they have to incorporate their upland into their regular tests. That leaves the APLA. It’s hard to place them since they’re placing an emphasis moreso on the upland then anything else. I’ve never run APLA and have helped at 2 (so take this for whatever it’s worth), but for ME, for the APLA tests to be considered the most demanding, you simply can’t throw a double in a master level test. Plain and simple.

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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06/16/2008 1:56 PM	Alert
I've not run in APLA (and probably won't), so I can't rate them. I've run in NAHRA, HRC, AKC & Gun Dog Challenge (will soon run in Duck Dog Challenge). In the venues that I've run in, NAHRA is by far the best testing for a true Hunting Retriever. Your dog must be a complete hunting dog (sans Pointing) to compete in the Master level. In HRC, the Upland portion is a totally seperate test (and seperate entry fee). AKC tends to have longer distances and more factors (in Master) than either NAHRA or HRC, but it is the least like a real hunting scenario. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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06/16/2008 4:34 PM	Alert
Since the topic was "which titles are the most important for a breeder", the focus should be on what make the pups the most attractive to buyers. If titles are going to be "main" issue and the breeder is selling pointing Labs, the APLA title would be at the top of the list. The degree of difficulty always seems to become an issue.....not unlike the undercurrent of "my dog is better than yours". I'll never forget this comment from the Kentucky Pointing Lab Seminar....mostly because I've always thought the APLA test is not truly understood. I'm going to paraphrase an experienced pro on the APLA difficulty issue. "Training a dog to earn a Grand Master Pointing Retriever title is much more difficult than anything else I've done". She has trained many titled MH titled dogs, too. In my opinion, an AKC Master Hunter test is more difficult than getting an HRC Finished title. NAHRA title dogs are in the minority and even if the testing is "whatever it is" the appeal becomes less for a breeder because it is not as widespread. So from a breeder's standpoint and from my experience in three of the venues and top level titles..I'd rank them (based on selling pups) 1) APLA, 2) AKC, 3) HRC and 4) NAHRA. As far as hunt tests being more realistic....a dog learns how to by taking it hunting often. I've never bought into the concept that one hunt test is more realistic than another. They don't come close! What the owner of a titled dog does in the "real" field will have much more to do with having a great hunting dog. However, all things being equal in the "real" field of hunting, the titled dog will always be more useful. I don't think the high level skills of a hunt test dog are going to be accomplished by "on the job training." Then again that hunting dog may be able to do all that is necessary to get the job done. What it all boils down to is, how much time are you going to invest in the experiences and training nessary to get that "really great dog". Not everyone wants that much. If that dog has skills via training and testing plus hunts (a lot), the whole package becomes a treasure. There is nothing like a titled, experienced hunting dog. I tend to want it all......the total package.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Iowa Hunter
Iowa

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06/17/2008 1:43 PM	Alert
1. Field Trials 2. AKC Hunt tests Because that is all I have ran. I believe that all tests take a well trained dog to do them well or any venue that you want to be successfull at. I like trials more than hunt tests because you know what you are going to get a few white coats, some retireds, and tough blinds. MH is tough because you never know what you are going to get, there are too many scenarios to train for at this point in my knowledge. I like the APLA Master tests from the ones I have seen because you get water and land doubles with blinds outside the marks with a diversion. Fair, and straight forward. The part I am going to be unnerved about is how do I keep a dog level headed after hunting in the upland field in independent mode, but be steady to wing and shot. Then go run a land blind w/o using your nose. That is alot to ask out of the dog, and I can see this being a tough challenge to face! Want to try more of or just try 1. APLA 2. FT Derbies 3. MH Tests

cartbird
Westland, MI

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06/17/2008 2:48 PM	Alert
All hunt tests have difficulty factors. On any given day, an APLA test may or may not be as difficult as an HRC finished, or, AKC master test. It depends on the grounds, judges, and weather. Any test that looks easy.....think again, look at the dificulty factors, and put yourself at the dogs hight level, that will tell you alot.

Cart's Island Labradors MPR HR Cart's Island Muddy Banks APR HR Cart's Island Gauge JH Cart's Island Tigs Perfect Storm of HRK (Breeze) Cart's Island Roscos Peco Train www.trulifetaxidermyartistry.com

TC
Apple Valley, Minnesota

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06/17/2008 4:46 PM	Alert
I'd like to twist the question a little bit: "What does each title tell you about a dog?" I think each title gives you a little more information about the dog, and it shouldn't be APLA vs. AKC vs. NAHRA vs. HRC, or a "my title means more than your title". As far as I know, the APLA encourages people to title their dogs in other programs. Each program has its positives and negatives, but I know for sure that a dog titled in multiple venues has accomplished more than a dog titled in a single venue. Only one dog has achieved the top-level title in every HT program (GMPR, GMHRCH, HRCH, UH, MH) - she's more than special. Each program has 3 basic levels. The beginner level title tells you something about the instinct of the dog. The intermediate level title expands on that instinct and tells you about memory, trainability, and obedience. The master level title takes that trainability and obedience to the extreme level - even requiring the dog to ignore instinct. Here's what the top-level title in each venue tells me: APLA - The dog has run a difficult double and blind on both land and water. On the same day, it's done a nice job of pointing multiple birds and was steady to shot in the upland field. APLA is the only program where the handler doesn't know the location of the birds in the upland. AKC - The dog has run extremely technical water and land triples and very technical blinds. HRC - The dog has run difficult triple water and land marks and blinds in hunting situations. HRC has an upland title (UH), but it's a totally seperate test. NAHRA - The dog has run difficult triple water and land marks and blinds in hunting situations. Upland quartering and "steady to flush" was done the same day as the retrieving. Also on the same day, the dog has proven its ability to trail and retrieve a wounded bird. The non-APLA titles require multiple passes, so the skills have been displayed repeatedly. Since APLA has a smaller pool of dogs and fewer tests, it's not practical to require multiple passes for an APLA title. The non-APLA tests can also incorporate honoring, poison birds, and other tricks. HRC and NAHRA might do things like put you in a layout blind or boat. They'll also require that you safely handle a gun while running your dog. To correct an earlier post: The APLA Master blinds are NOT always outside of the marks - they're usually not. I've seen some pretty nasty stuff in APLA Master tests incorporating the blinds with the marks - under the arc, using suction from marks, etc.

Rob G
Cedaredge, CO

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06/18/2008 8:20 AM	Alert
Posted By TC on 06/17/2008 4:46 PM The non-APLA titles require multiple passes, so the skills have been displayed repeatedly. Since APLA has a smaller pool of dogs and fewer tests, it's not practical to require multiple passes for an APLA title. BR> Just to clarify, the APLA offers titles up to 4XGMPR which would require 8 Master passes to earn.

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VicR

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06/23/2008 9:30 AM	Alert
I have run both the APLA and AKC tests from the 1st level to Master levels for the last 8 years or so. I like the tests not because they simulate hunting. I like them because of the performance of my dogs when I am hunting with them and when they are at home lounging around. The time spent with them training and the bird exposure that needs to go along with achieving Master titles to run the tests is the beauty. Worth all the effort my wife and I put into training them. So, I agree with many of these posts, the value of the different tests depends on your objectives. I once heard a personal friend and trainer say (Julie), Something like "Wouldn't you prefer to drive a souped up Jaguar instead of a Honda Cicvic? Both are fine vehicles but the performance of the Jag is much more fun to handle." Priceless. Vic Rompa

2Blackdogs!
Kansas City Area - GO CHIEFS !!!

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06/23/2008 2:20 PM	Alert
I don't know Vic- At the price of gas a Honda crv SUV might even make a hunting vehicle-no room for 2BD! in a Jag.

Cuivre River Retrievers
Hawk Point, MO

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06/23/2008 9:16 PM	Alert
I doesn't matter what the venue - they are all a blast and every one of them gives you the opportunity to do a reality check in where you are in your training process! For those of us who are results oriented - it is a gratifying feeling as you progress to the various levels!

Brett Bunk www.cuivreriverretrievers.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- GMPR HRCH Cuivre River's Playin' for Keeps SH (Gauge) HRCH Breakwater's Black Velvet Rose MH (Rosie) HRCH YRP Brownwaterdog's Ugottabelieve (Baili) HR Black Forest's Relentless Pursuit (Gunner) HRCH Cuivre River's Kayes Bossy Autumn SH (Autumn)

OD

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06/24/2008 8:52 AM	Alert
My advice is to go try them all. A good dog should be able to adapt, through good training, to the task at hand. I ran an HRC test this weekend that was by far the most techinical test I have ever ran. Three marks in line within 15 feet of each other, two of them moving in river water. Then run a blnd up river through the previous three marks. Very few FC/AFC NFC, MH dogs who dont do these types of tests would pass them in my opinion. Which brings up an important point. Dogs get good at what they do the most. A dog that can run in AKC all age field trials, AKC MH, HRC finsihed, APLA GMPR has without a doubt defined a distinction in their abilties especially to adapt. It's simple really. A good dog is a good dog. A good dog with the right training can become a great dog. There is nothing, no experience I can compare to, to be able to work with, handle and enjoy running a dog that can handle what ever a judge at any event or test organization can throw at you and your dog comes back with all the birds consistenly. Before you judge the worth of a title in an organization go run your dog in it. It is human nature to assume sometimes. You might be suprised at what you and your dog can learn. Gary and the big yeller dog OD

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