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rubberduckie
Ohio

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04/30/2008 6:01 PM	Alert
I know there are a Million variables here. But on average with good breeding and genetics on both sides what is the percentages in regards to how many pups will point in a litter? And how does it compare with other pointing breeds?

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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04/30/2008 7:35 PM	Alert
This is just MHO, but it's estimated that 7% to 10% of Labs from purely a flushing pedigree will point. I've heard of some supposed "PL" litters that the percentage is the same. I know of some breedings that always produce 100% pointers. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

Jere

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05/01/2008 2:14 PM	Alert
I am not a pro breeder. I have heard second hand claims of 60% from one kennel. Another may claim higher. I have encountered a fair number of folks in my travels hunting around the country who have PLs from ell known kennels which do not point. The fraction of people I have met with PLs that do point is less than a third I think. I have seen only one with what I would call a really strong and solid natural pointing instinct. Probably I should get out more and make a concerted effort to see some more kennels. What I've heard from the folks I've met hasn't suggested where I should go. Established pointing breeds - Hmmm. For the real pointing breeds - EPs and ESs - Essentially 100% and pointing at a young age. Innate point in these dogs is well established and does not have the apparent "fragile" nature of that of many PLs - not subject to extinguishing by letting dog catch a few birds or such. Some of the V-dog breeds may be lower or develop more slowly; but they are right up there. My guess is over 90%. I don't see that issue brought to dog forums very frequently for accepted pointing breed dogs but it is probably the most frequently mentioned issue on the PL forums. Sorry to have to say this, but, IMO, the pointing Lab strain the APLA claims to seek ain't here yet. Maybe someone else can provide some hard statistics or contrary evidence. There is more to making a functional pointing dog than "point" IMO. If the dog does not typically naturally want to range further from the hunter than gunshot distance - I would have no use for it as a pointing dog. It appears many or most PL owners want their dogs working that-a-way. It is not clear to me, at this time, whether their dogs do so because of natural inclination (at least one kennel seems to claim so on its website) or as a result of training expectations. Jere

Doc_E
N.E. WA state

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05/01/2008 6:07 PM	Alert
We had a Bird Dog Challenge Practice day last Saturday. One Wiiemmy had ZERO point. One GSP had a Pizz-poor Point, one EP had a Pizz-poor Point, one GSP was dandy nice and two (16 month old) EP's were astounding, one EP only found one bird out of the three that were planted. If it would have been a real competition, Casey would have placed 3rd or 4th. .

Doc E and Cujo Casey boy.

rubberduckie
Ohio

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05/01/2008 6:50 PM	Alert
My PL has pointed since day one. She is my first PL. I personally believe it’s in her blood but I am not an expert. I think as an organization we should keep some type of statistics. Maybe 50 years from now we can have a strain that could equal the other breeds.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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05/01/2008 8:13 PM	Alert
What I've heard from the folks I've met hasn't suggested where I should go. You haven't met me yet.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

rubberduckie
Ohio

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05/02/2008 4:25 AM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 05/01/2008 8:13 PM What I've heard from the folks I've met hasn't suggested where I should go. You haven't met me yet. Should we?????? Never mind I got it, have not had my coffee yet.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Jere

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05/02/2008 3:48 PM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 05/01/2008 8:13 PM What I've heard from the folks I've met hasn't suggested where I should go. You haven't met me yet. Au contraire, Jim. I'm sure you do remember, but maybe old-timer's has really set in down there. We met on the old pointinglabs forums some years ago when you were still advising folks to e-collar burn a dog for chasing birds. I KNOW full well where you think I should go - you've made that adundantly clear many times over the intervening years. Jere

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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05/02/2008 4:01 PM	Alert
when you were still advising folks to e-collar burn a dog for chasing birds Jere.....that is no truth in that at all. It's just not true.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

OD

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05/04/2008 9:01 PM	Alert
RD, I have been very fortunate. I have had four litters of pups and 100% have pointed. That was with a lot of planning and being very selective in the dogs. Jere, My experience is that the range is a combonation of both how they are wired and how you train. My EP has field trial breeding. The little knucklehead would run 200 yards even at 4 months old. My GSP will run pretty much where you want him from 50 to 250/300 yards. It depends really on what their job is going to be. G man ( GSP ) was running full throttle today in a test but that is because I had a field trial judge judging him. Generally they want a dog running big, independant with minimal communcation. Their not interested in the mechanics of hunting. They want to see a dog cover a lot of ground, looking for objectives on a bird search in destroy mission. They actually like to see a dog blaze over the top of a hill out of sight purposely looking for birds. They expect the dog to come back in your general direction to check and see where your at once in a while. Most PL people would get real nervous letting their dogs run like this. My older PL's are honest so I dont really have a problem with running out to 150 yards or so. For a traditional pointer hunt test or field trail dog that would not even begin to get out of first gear. Gary PRG

Jere

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05/10/2008 4:09 PM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 05/02/2008 4:01 PM when you were still advising folks to e-collar burn a dog for chasing birds Jere.....that is absolutely pure 100% BS. In fact, it is a blatant lie. Well, Jim, when I typed that post I had a specific thread and post from the old pointinglabs.com forum in mind. I was sure I had it stored on this machine, so sure that I did not verify before hitting the 'submit' button. Now I find I have not been able to retrieve it here or in google's massive stores - they seem to have purged all the old stuff, or never cached it in the first place. So, I can not substantiate what I said. It may be true, or there may have been some nuance to what you posted way back then that would make it false. I apologize for posting an obnoxious reply to your post. Rest assured it won't happen again. The next time you decide to take a thread personal that-a-way with a comment like the one you posted, if I reply in kind, I WILL have supportive evidence. Jere

Jere

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05/10/2008 4:32 PM	Alert
Posted By OD on 05/04/2008 9:01 PM Jere, My experience is that the range is a combonation of both how they are wired and how you train. My EP has field trial breeding. The little knucklehead would run 200 yards even at 4 months old. My GSP will run pretty much where you want him from 50 to 250/300 yards. It depends really on what their job is going to be. G man ( GSP ) was running full throttle today in a test but that is because I had a field trial judge judging him. Generally they want a dog running big, independant with minimal communcation. Their not interested in the mechanics of hunting. They want to see a dog cover a lot of ground, looking for objectives on a bird search in destroy mission. They actually like to see a dog blaze over the top of a hill out of sight purposely looking for birds. They expect the dog to come back in your general direction to check and see where your at once in a while. Most PL people would get real nervous letting their dogs run like this. My older PL's are honest so I dont really have a problem with running out to 150 yards or so. For a traditional pointer hunt test or field trail dog that would not even begin to get out of first gear. Gary PRG Yes, Gary, and I have written on this subject before on forums, maybe on this one. There are other factors which determine how wide a given dog ranges on a given day which you didn't mention. Among those are the scenting conditions of the time (including the sensitivity of the dog's sense of smell and how well it has learned to use it), the nature of the cover being hunted and the density of birds in that cover. A really good dog adjusts its working range relative to the hunter/handler in relation to all these factors - if it is allowed to (acknowleging your comment "Most PL people would get real nervous letting their dogs run like this." This, BTW, does not only apply to 'PL people.' The older of my dogs ranges out to just on the edge of sight distance from me, 30 - 60 yards, in the mixed spruce/aspen/birch forest ruffed grouse cover of interior Alaska. He pops in and out of sight as he covers the ground. In moderately thick tallish grass pheasant cover in South Dakota he'll be ranging out to a maximum of 100 - 200 yards (I haven't had the experience of hunting him where the phez are REALLY thick, there.) In Oregon he works on out to 250 -350 yards in short, sparse, grass holding a few covies of chukar. The younger dog, however, hasn't figured out (or is tempermentally unable to cope with) that tight cover in the trees; but ranges to a maximum of 50 - 100 yards further thn the old dog in more open cover. Jere

KwickLabs
Roscoe, IL

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05/10/2008 5:05 PM	Alert
Well, Jere it is a shame you did not understand the "tongue and cheek" comment about "where you should go". The problem with the Internet is sometimes a sharp, friendly jab is taken way too seriously. Most people I know would have laughed at that. I've been questioned on that very comment often, and I've learned to avoid inadvertantly asking "where I should go". Others would have at least asked for a quick clarification. Anyway, my past history with an e-collar has always been on the side of caution which mostly means not giving any more advice than to make sure you know what you are doing. Get experienced help is the usual advice. Also, the word "burn" has never been part of my training vocabulary except when telling others using the word "burn" is not PC. As far as using it in my dog/bird interactions, I have never been comfortable with that use and frankly been way to concerned about turning a dog off permanently. So that's why I can't figure out where you came up with that "reactionary" comment. It just never happened. As long as you are apologizing, maybe I will do the same for my "flippy" comment about "where you should go". It was not meant to be mean spirited, but obviously it came across that way. I apologize. As far as my reaction to the "unfounded" statement, I am comfortable with the fact that never happened. I have said some dumb things in my life, but that is not one of the three.

Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com Home of: MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH Kwick Draw McGraw ("Dustbucket" II) ---------------------------------- "Excellence is Expected"

Jere

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05/11/2008 3:22 PM	Alert
Posted By KwickLabs on 05/10/2008 5:05 PM Well, Jere it is a shame you did not understand the "tongue and cheek" comment about "where you should go". ... Others would have at least asked for a quick clarification. . . . As long as you are apologizing, maybe I will do the same for my "flippy" comment about "where you should go". It was not meant to be mean spirited, but obviously it came across that way. I apologize. ... Yes, Jim, and maybe a few months ago I would have understood immediatly and laughed it off. My fuse may have shortened recently from visiting and attempting to contribute on a couple of forums infested with a few terrible trolls all too willing to pollute otherwise amicable threads with vitriolic and mean spirited 'shock and awe-like' personal attacks. We don't need that on the PL forums. Asking for clarification would have been the proper approach here, and could have proven interesting. Sorry. So, we have wiped the slate clean and can start over. I hope spring is moving along comfortably there. Today is the eighth day of May with rain here. Happily it has been light rain, not requiring special protection when we're outside. Take care, Jere

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