Julie
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| 04/04/2008 7:54 AM |
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| I'd like to throw a question out to everyone - opinions on neutering male dogs. I have been getting more and more young male dogs in for training that have been neutered before even beginning hunting training. I know people and vets believe it is the 'responsible' thing to do with dogs, particularly those never intended for breeding. A very good friend who is a vet has argued with us for years that neutering doesn't affect performance, but I always asked him if neutering him at 9 or 10 wouldn't have affected what he became in life. The conversation was always over right there. Since then, a number of vets owning performance dogs have agreed with me that it was not a good thing to do for a dog intended for performance activities, at least too early. I also strongly believe that all of the bodies chemical systems are necessary for any animal to reach optimal development in every sense. Neutering so early has to affect that, and I've seen it time and time again.
Is it me or is this getting out of hand? I don't think the testicular cancer argument holds water given downsides of premature neutering. Just wondered with Doc and everybody else thought?
Julie |
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Ruby's pal
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| 04/04/2008 8:12 AM |
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Julie,
It has been decades since I last owned a male dog, but couldn't help but to wonder, is the same true for spaying female dogs early in life? I always wait till my female dogs are at least two to spay them. I let them go through several heat cycles prior to spaying. I have had friends that spay early on, prior to the first full blown heat cycle. I don't have the experience with many dogs like you to base a theory on. I don't plan to get into the breeding arena, so all my dogs end up being spayed. I will leave the breeding to those with more time and money to put into producing quality dogs.
Not meaning to sidetrack the question, just expanding on it a tad bit.
Pat
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Rob G
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| 04/04/2008 8:45 AM |
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Julie,
This is a very interesting subject and one I've wondered about for a while. While I certainly don't have the experience with having trained both neutered and intact dogs that you have, I tend to lean on the side of leaving them intact as long as possible. I think they need all of their original "equipment" in order to develop the way nature intended.
I'd also like to hear some opinions on how spaying a female at 6 mos. might affect her development...
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eagle_3464
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| 04/04/2008 10:38 AM |
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| I have absolutely no credentials for posting on this subject as I will be getting my first dog this summer. What I can offer is something I have heard my dad say. He grew up with coon hounds and said that nearly all females became better hunters after a litter of pups. In the wild a canine must hunt well if they are to raise their pups so I think the natural hunting instinct rises to the surface. Now I am not saying that everyone should go out an produce a litter of pups because there are too many ill-bred litters out there already, but I do agree with Pat in letting them go through a couple of heat cycles. Brad |
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hooligan
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| 04/04/2008 11:50 AM |
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My other half is a veterinary orthopedic surgeon. I have come to "his side of the fence" regarding neutering large breed male dogs, which is waiting until they are structurally mature (2-3 years old), as breeds predisposed to joint issues will be aided by the natural development of their hormones with regard to muscle mass and bone structure. Dogs whose "landing gear didn't engage" should be neutered, though. There is a genetic component to retained testicles, and it is not something that should be passed on-and there are can be other problems as well, either along with or arising from this problem.
Female dogs are a bit of a different issue. Spaying them before their first heat virtually eliminates the risk of breast cancer-waiting for one heat cycle ups the chance something like 20-25%. The only issue I know about as a negative to spaying before the first heat is an increased risk of incontinence as the dog ages, but I think it is low. I would imagine that hormones in females affect their structure as well-but since intact female dogs don't by nature "bulk up" like male dogs do, it may not have as great an impact.
I don't have experience to comment on trainability or drive or any of that. For me personally, I am ok with a male dog being intact as long as he is a gentleman-otherwise I would neuter him. I would not want an intact female dog, so I would spay before the first heat cycle. Just my preferences. |
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2Blackdogs!
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| 04/04/2008 12:10 PM |
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I have always subscribed to leaving them intact till at least 2 and totally agree that things have been over done in this area. Really glad to hear that you have that opinion Julie- since ya got my 'boy' right now and I would like to someday get 'all' of him back  |
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Rob G
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| 04/04/2008 1:15 PM |
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Posted By 2Blackdogs! on 04/04/2008 12:10 PM Really glad to hear that you have that opinion Julie- since ya got my 'boy' right now and I would like to someday get 'all' of him back
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Jere
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| 04/04/2008 3:30 PM |
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Tucker was neutered at 9 mo. His muscle mass and tone in the hind end went down rapidly. He still functions well enough, but that would not bode well for top level competitive performance. IMO
We see none such in Storm who remains - intact.
As far as I could tell ALL behaviors manifested before the cutting remained unchanged - including territorial scent marking and so on.
I don't think I'll do it again.
There's some good stuff on the net. See:
"Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete” by Chris Zink and the rebuttal by Lisa Howe - both vets. Enough stuff there to keep your head swimming and if you want more there are numerous references to the published literature.
I also found:
"Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs" by Laura Sanborn interesting.
I don't have links - google is the way.
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KwickLabs
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| 04/04/2008 4:50 PM |
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Well frankly, I don’t have the enough experience to have any statistical evidence as to the effects of early neutering. However, that approach never seemed to stop me before. 
I do have one anecdotal history to share. When Kooly was two-and-half years old he was neutered. I now refer to this as the “ultimate correction”. This was done two days after he (Ok....we) bombed an AKC Senior test. My warped logic at the time was since I already had a vasectomy, he should take the brunt of the blame. 
Seriously though, there were almost three years of analysis that went into this decision (Kooly’s that is). Amy Dahl had written a very compelling article about the impact on drive in neutered dogs. I bought that. Since Kooly was very soft and maturing slowly, this was enough to delay the operation. Kooly was never going to be bred (because of other issues), but I did not want to compromise his physical and mental development (in theory). In his case, Kooly had grown into a muscular, well built adult male dog before he was neutered. His field drive was (and remains) excellent.
I read an article which described the percentage changes in male dog behavior patterns after neutering. Significant changes do occur for some dogs. This is statistical evidence that a gambler might better understand. NOTHING was 100%, but the risk seemed worth it.
In retrospect, I seem to have a lot more luck in training female dogs because that’s about all I’ve ever had. Kooly was my first male in a long time. By the time he was two there were many male behaviors that were getting “down right” irritating. At the same time, his training was NOT going all that well. The word “quirky” came up often and “inconsistency” was not far behind. There were times I didn’t like him....much.....but we coexisted. He was mine for the long haul.
Kooly got high percentages in those statistical changes. Six months after the “big correction”, I began to see a different dog was appearing. A huge change for me was that only one of his excellent marking skills remains. He no longer walks around with his nose up every other dog’s butt. He is more cooperative, fun to be with and tries all the time. Kooly’s work ethic has improved drastically, and suddenly he’s become charming.
There is one aspect of his behavior that was not a plus. At times I think it is a reminder to me of his "loss". He became more vocal at the line in tests. 
One could say Kooly was out of balance.....too much weight behind. I'm glad I waited. 
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Doc_E
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| 04/04/2008 6:39 PM |
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I have never owned a neutered or spayed dog, so I have no idea how it would affect training, but I do have deep convictions regarding the physical health of dogs (joints). I would never - never ever - recommend that any dog be neutered or spayed earlier than 14 months -- preferably even later.
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2Blackdogs!
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| 04/04/2008 8:12 PM |
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Kwick- I imagine that his vocalizations were of a higher pitch after that too !  Now leave it to Julie to get a thread like this started and then just bail on us... |
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hooligan
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| 04/05/2008 7:24 AM |
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| As an aside, Jere-less muscle mass only in the rear would probably not be from the neutering. Is Tucker well muscled-even heavy-in front but light in the back? If so, that would usually be indicative of a dog "leaning" forward-usually from a hip or knee issue. Our female Jack Russell has shoulders like a linebacker-she had TPLO surgery on both her knees. Could be that he, at some point, slightly injured something, or was developing an arthritic type condition-and favored the back end to compensate. Did you do OFA with him? |
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Jere
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| 04/05/2008 2:35 PM |
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Marlana, I would say Tucker is more or less well muscled all around, just not so much as I believe he would be if he had not been cut. I believe he's pretty well balanced front to rear. The loss of muscle mass and tone in the hind legs was more noticible at the time than any elsewhere because he was so bulked up there. It appeared essentially immediately after he was cut. Those are the largest muscles in the dog's body are they not? He probably lost similarly in the front as well - we just didn't notice it at the time because of the disparity in shear size of front and rear musculature and our inexperience at the time. Testosterone is responsible, in part, for building and maintaining muscle mass, is it not? That fact and comments by others who have seen a lot more dogs than I is why I attributed the loss of muscle mass to being cut. This was all eleven years ago - memory fades in some of us as we age... He had some skeletal injuries as he grew and aged as most dogs that work do. I do not remember any time when he visibly favored the rear. It was always a front leg/shoulder or foot. Except in those instances, he has never slowed down, he sprints alongside the younger, stronger dog, Storm, who is quite rapid, still today. He sees the vet at least once a year and she's been recently commenting on the good shape he's in. I think he'll be seeing her again this month and I'll ask about front - rear balance etc. There are signs of aging - occassional stiffness,or soreness in the spine, etc, but this would seem to be expected at nearly twelve years of age. No, he was never xrayed for OFA or Penn-hip. It's a bit late for that, especially in the absence of any overt symptoms, I think. But last fall he was x-rayed in Anchorage for that intestinal thing that layed him low. The vet down here wants to see the film and I got a copy to take to her when she comes across the bay later this month. It doesn't show the hips properly but it does show eleven vertibral joints.
Thanks for your perspective and input. Good information I'll try and remember.
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Paths_beyond
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| 04/07/2008 8:38 PM |
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Just got my dog neutered, he is almost 8 years old.
He definitely showed no signs of having a problem not being neutered.
So, we know that works.
I just wanted to prevent the cancer thing and he was getting too territotial with his space.
Had to correct him when he did.
Now he is much better and it has only been a couple of months!
He is also wants more affection and lap time (all 75 pounds of him).
Seemed just as birdie when I took him out last Saturday.
Vic
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sonicman Moderator
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| 04/07/2008 10:06 PM |
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We have many people buy pups that plan to have them neutered. We normally ask people what they are going to do with the dog and we BEG them to wait until they are 18-24 mos. of age if they are going to neuter. It is a very great challenge as for some reason they want to listen to their college educated vet instead of a fry cook (me). It seems like there are a lot of vets than can hardly wait for the testicles to drop before they cut them off.
I very strongly believe that neutering a dog does not necessarily affect his performance, but I believe equally strongly that they should be allowed to reach a reasonable level of physical maturity 1st. I believe this both for health reasons (as stated by others above) and also from an aesthetic standpoint.
If I am going to own a male dog I would like for it to look (and act to a large extent) like a male dog. |
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Hobbes
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| 04/07/2008 10:33 PM |
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Bow is approaching 6 months and I'm not sure when the vet thinks we should, but he has mentioned neutering several times. I let it go in one ear and out the other and will eventually have to break it to him that I have no intentions of letting him alter my pups development in that way. I have zero experience with training hunting dogs, but the dogs we've had (labs and several mixed breeds) female and male that were "fixed" changed drastically in my opinion. I just don't see how the procedure would not alter a dogs personality in some fashion.
I have virtually no experience, but I'm always good at voicing my opinion. |
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Julie
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| 04/10/2008 6:16 PM |
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What a great discussion! I appreciate Hooli, Doc and Jere with their technical input and it all seems to lead to the same conclusion. There is an obvious place for neutering, but it can wait until the dog and its parts are fully formed as nature intended. I wish puppy buyers could be made aware of this before the neutering craze overtakes them. Thanks a whole bunch..
2BD XX..3BD, neutering your dog has crossed my mind..oh...maybe...about..... a zillion times, trust me!
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2Blackdogs!
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keskam
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| 04/10/2008 6:59 PM |
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Steve you best be at the test if you know what is good for your dog!!  |
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2Blackdogs!
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| 04/10/2008 9:26 PM |
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I guess little 'Chiefy' is a real ' Go Get Her'  |
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