We are in the first stages of FF and doing pretty good so far.  After a small bout of  flopping down and turning the head, Thor now holds the bumper pretty much as long as I ask.  I can heel him around the yard, up and down with no problem.  When I throw for him though I get 1 maybe two where he will hold, other than that he will drop and sit.  Am I missing something or do I just need more time?  I was so happy when he walked, sat, and walked again with it that I thought we were about ready to move on.  I guess we have about a week of short 10-15 min sessions.  Thanks

FF takes time, you want him to be jumping at the dummy when you say fetch, (tring to escape presure), and hold it to you say drop, or again there will be more presure. Instill this in his brain over and over. If he drops, put it in his mouth and make him hold it for a few minutes, never let him get away with a drop. I plan atleast 3 weeks of this for most dogs, at twice a day an hour each.
Move to fast and it will always come back to bite you.

FJR, are you saying to use pressure on the hold portion of the FF?  I just opened his mouth and placed in the bumper.  At this stage he doesnt take the bumper from my hand.

If you are using ear pinch, its always#1 pressure(ear pinch) then the #2 word fetch, and #3put the dummy in his mouth.Release the ear as soon as the dummy goes in his mouth. 
When the bumper is in his mouth, say hold and keep your thumb under his jaw between his jaw bones(about mid tounge). Kinda gripping his muzzle like you would throw a football. With your other hand, give easy taps to the bumper, as to knock it out of his mouth. Use your thumb to apply pressure every time he is about to drop. After a few sessions of this you will be able to tap the bumper and watch him tighten up as to not drop, using nothing but one hand.
The thumb under jaw is another pressure I start with. Its not painful to him, just anoyance I think. Try the thumb trick on yourself, its crazy how hard it is to open your mouth with pressure under your jaw.
Again most are on the table for three weeks before they hit the ground. Just take your time, as many say, FF is the foundation to every good dog.

I should mention, at each end of my table I have a post with a eye bolt (installed according to his height, you want it just over his neck). I then use a double snap that goes to the collar. This keeps him from turning his head and escaping. Also use a hitch rope around his waste to the over head cable to keep him from sitting. If you don't have a table, maybe you get the Idea and could rig something up.

I'd get this dvd - Fowl Dawgs 1 www.finelineretrievers.com

Thanks all, today we had 3 perfect retrieves and hold, still alot of work ahead but maybe the light is starting to turn on. I havent ear pinched for the hold portion, and I was planning on using the toe hitch for the rest of it. If I understand Julie's book she didnt use pressure on the hold. I know every dog and situation is different, and two of the training DVD's I have use pressure from the start. I guess I am trying to find the best way for me and the dog, and was a little down after not seeing him put 2 & 2 together after doing so well holding, healing ect. Please feel free to speak your views, I welcome the help from you all.

Think about and keep the bigger picture in mind. How do all the parts fit together and why? Take your time, teach right not fast!

PRG

Posted By OD on 17 Apr 2010 08:19 PM
Think about and keep the bigger picture in mind. How do all the parts fit together and why? Take your time, teach right not fast!

PRG

I know thats one of my issues that I like to see results now.  Good at work not so good with a pup Im trying to slow down.

A few dogs can continue doing retrieves during FF -- But MANY can't / shouldn't.
You have NO MEANS of correcting the dog at this point if it presents a sloppy retrieve.

My advice (worth maybe 2 cents) is to completely stop any retrieves until you are in a positon to be able to enforce (after FF is complete).



.

Very good point doc. That is an issue that, when he brings back and drops I have to try and catch it to reinforce the hold. I just didnt really want to stop the retrieving all together but that may have to happen. The other issue he has is that he wants to constantly look away, I reinforce sit to get his attention but it is a constant prob. We will get there eventually.

I'm with Doc you should have him picking up while FF but I would not be throwing anything at this point have him walk at heel and pick bumpers up that you have set out or set them across the room but dont be THROWING anything at this point!!!

A couple of concepts to understand here. I call them GRT's Golden Rules of Training. Anything you allow to happen you reinforce. Do not use pressure until the dog completely understands what your asking them to do. As a general rule pressure is not to teach but to correct. Down the road when your teaching to work through pressure on pile work is another story.

Your dog is only doing what you have taught them. The question I have is have you taught your dog to hold all the way back to you , here , heel, drop? Does not sound like it based on the response your seeing. There are several steps to teaching force fetch. You have to teach each one completely and then, this is critical, teach your dog how to make the connections between all those steps. Applying pressure is not how you should teach it.

Look at it the way your dog does. They can teach you a great deal if you learn how to understand what they are communicating to you. They don't lie! Think like a dog and you can get some more insight in what you should do.

Gary



PRG

OD now Im confused. How do you teach without pressure? Yes I have tried working here, heel, drop before starting on FF. There was alot of success with here and heel but he would drop everytime at my feet. I dont get how you teach with out enforcement, that is basic if you are a dog or person. (ie dont touch that, slap on the hand) Isnt basic obedience do or dont do this and this is what will happen. I learned not to cuss by not wanting my mouth slapped. He will learn to fetch, here, hold because he doesnt want his ear pinched. Am I looking at this wrong, if teaching him without pressure works, why use it? Not trying to argue but better understand.

Think about your example. When you were corrected did you know what was right or wrong in those instances. Did your parents make it clear to you what the right and wrong response was before they corrected you? Did they just smack the you know what out you to teach you right from wrong? If they smacked you first would you want to spend a lot of time around the person that smacked you? I'll bet I know the answer. They taught you first the difference between the right decision and the wrong decision. I will also bet they did not l leave much gray area. It was black and white. It was not until they knew you understood that you received correction. You also knew why you were being corrected and exactly what it meant. This is exactly the same way you should teach your dog concepts. Don't put pressure on them for something you have not taught them. It is not fair and they will not make the connection. The connection they will make is bad things to you and the task you are doing at the time.

Most people do not understand what pressure is , when, where and how to use it. Force fetch is really not a term I like. A better description is a conditioned response to fetch that has been taught. Not forced or pounded in there! Is there a time to collar condition for it. Yes but not now.

Have you taught your dog the connection between holding , heeling, sitting, dropping? The mechanics of a retrieve? If so he would be doing it? If not, is it fair to correct for something you have not taught? Think about that.

The real question is how will you teach him to make the connection between all of those concepts? Pressure at this point is not the answer based on what you have said.

I will let you in on a little secret. Only few people really get, because they are just trying to train by the numbers and not thinking like a dog. They are trying to make the dog fit some ideal. Too many people try to force their dog into some program. Perceived timelines can be a real trap in disguise ! A training process should fit the dog not the other way around. If you do your job right as a trainer your dog will want to work with you and do things right not because he fears you or bad consequences ( pressure) . Rather because you have set him up consistently to be successful. You have created a success cycle with your dog. You have taught him each concept completely in black and white and you have taught him the connections between concepts. Without a hammer! Some things to ponder.

Gary

PRG

Very true, point taken, and agreed with. Thanks You might be right on the training by numbers deal. This is the first dog I have ever cared about being fininshed. Before if they brought the bird back and dropped at my feet I was happy enough. So I maybe driving to fast. Back to the original issue though, he will hold and sit, heal, stay, with out a drop I can even run with him holding and he will not drop. It was on retrieves he would run in and drop. So in my twisted redneck mind he knows what hold means but wasnt putting together with retrieve.

Rugerred,

Your 85% there dude. There are at least two other variables in the equation and you should be home free.

Twisted redneck minds can still be trained if they have the right attitude. Don't know that I am totally redneck but have been called twisted more than once. Here is the question and a major part of the solution. Does your dog have a retrieving problem? Does he go get the bird? Your saying he does so that is really not the issue? What command is missing when pup comes back and drops it? At the point he drops it what should he be doing with the bumper and where should he be headed and end up at? What commands get him there?

When you can reason through it all you and your dog will have learned something.

Connections. Think like a dog!

Gary

PRG

Start with him facing you at sit, dummy in his mouth, holding. With the checkcord, say heel, hold, hold, hold. Bringing him to heel at your side. If he drops, get the bumper back in his mouth. Make it a fun game and repete over and over, you will soon see results. Repetition is the father of learning for us all, although some say it's the mother.

FJR pretty much nailed it. Remote sit. Teach him first without the bumper then while holding it. That is your missing link and why your dog has not learned to make the connection from hold to heel on retrieves. Don't forget a lot of praise when he makes the right decision.

Off to train a pile of dogs!

Gary

PRG