Long term advice. Hunt with potential dog parents or offspings, becoming a judge let's you see a lot of them.
Titles are great and prove a dog is capable. I mean who doesn't have a great dog? Titles aren't the end all, but it's a matter of chances.
If you do the above and the dog is titled, there is a batter chance for getting what you want.

Pick a litter based on what your personal likes are (i.e. a dog you would like hunting with). No dog will be exactly the same but traits do come through.
Of course buy from a reputable breeder.

Vic

There are a lot of great athletes that for what ever reason never tried a sport out and are quite happy doing what they are doing, throw them out on the ball field with no experience it won't be pretty, give them the exposure and training they need and the story changes.
It is not fair to take a snap shot of a dog from a hunt test and base your opinion of it from that one instance just as its not fair to compare a dog who has 5 years experience living in the grouse woods with the first day another sets foot in one. I have ran the same dog in hunt tests and failed, barely passed and smoked the test(its funny how the great tests stand out in our minds) Also had great days hunting and bad days hunting with the same dog. I can give you my opinion on that dog and it would matter but would someone else s from their small experience or snapshot matter, not for me it wouldn't. The rubber meets the road with the puppies that comes out of given dog no matter the titles and opinion s of the sires or dams and this is what people should start looking harder at- Do the puppies exceed the standard do they even meet it?

I'll come up there and hunt with you PACO

I've got a dog from a 4XGMPR x 4XGMPR that is lacking in many areas...

I've got another dog from a 4XGMPR x 4XGMPR that is my "dog of a lifetime"...

I've got yet another dog from untitled parents that is spectacular in his abilities...

Titles are for the owners; not the dogs.

P.S.  I should note that of my two pups from double 4X parents, none of them had achieved that title before my pups were born.  Does that mean that the pups they produce after they have reached that title will be better bred and more talented than the pups they produced before they reached the upper titles?


P.S.S.  Another note worth mentioning... I purchased one pup based on titles alone and never saw the parents work.  The other pup, I hunted with the sire and watched the dam run for her GMPR.  Can you guess which one is which?

Point is... watch the dogs work.  Titles or no titles, you must watch the parents perform.  Not a guarantee (nothing in life is), but it will get you much closer to getting the pup that will fit your needs IMNSHO.

Gum, Hunting ditch parrots in SD is a whole lot different than hunting grouse in the woods, sharptail or prairie chickens on the prairies or quail in Oklahoma.. Any dog can look like a champion where the birds are thick.

 

Few dogs know how to find and handle birds on the prairie’s and then hit the woods, find and pin down a  bird when you might have to walk for 3 hours before an encounter.  That’s where you separate the bird dogs from the windshield wiper dogs. FT retrievers wouldn’t stand a snowballs chance finding a bird when the going gets tough. It takes a hunting dog and one with many hours in the field learning what it takes when the going gets tough.

I want the best breeding I can find for that meat dog, repeat breeding from proven parents that know how to find and handle birds.

Then once you find that great breeding..it comes time to pick from the litter...I thinks this step is harder than finding the right breeding...Has been for me anyway...Seems like there is always one or two that stand out from the rest in every litter.

I would much rather pick one at 3 or 4 months old than the normal 8 weeks!

I like the started dogs, because you get a better picture of what your buying.
A Whole nother can of worms...

------------

Ooooooooooooooo

Posted By tigerliberty on 26 Feb 2010 06:06 AM
There are a lot of great athletes that for what ever reason never tried a sport out and are quite happy doing what they are doing, throw them out on the ball field with no experience it won't be pretty, give them the exposure and training they need and the story changes.
It is not fair to take a snap shot of a dog from a hunt test and base your opinion of it from that one instance just as its not fair to compare a dog who has 5 years experience living in the grouse woods with the first day another sets foot in one. I have ran the same dog in hunt tests and failed, barely passed and smoked the test(its funny how the great tests stand out in our minds) Also had great days hunting and bad days hunting with the same dog. I can give you my opinion on that dog and it would matter but would someone else s from their small experience or snapshot matter, not for me it wouldn't. The rubber meets the road with the puppies that comes out of given dog no matter the titles and opinion s of the sires or dams and this is what people should start looking harder at- Do the puppies exceed the standard do they even meet it?

Now this is put pretty well,and let it be known,Dale and I have our differences............ Gum,,,,I tried hard to let you know I was having a little fun with that last post.(ACTUALLY WAS HOPING YOU'D SAY SOMETHING LIKE,,,COME ON OUT AND TRY OUR BIRDS IN SD.)----------------------- Oh and Dale,,,that's why I said the 10 mth old.... and Gum is right,all he would do is run all over the forest(finding birds).....another smilie inserted here...and adding that run all over the field line,would be taken by some,,,,Well,I really don't want to get into it. I was planning to self moderate and delete my posts on this thread,but got home too late for it...

Posted By keskam on 26 Feb 2010 06:24 AM
I'll come up there and hunt with you Peco

YOU WOULD BE MORE THAN WELCOME AND ENJOY THE GROUSE WOODS!I'm feeling a lot of love brother Kevin,a lot of love......Nice spelling "PECO" good name for a dog. OOPS.....

Posted By Paco on 26 Feb 2010 12:44 PM

Posted By keskam on 26 Feb 2010 06:24 AM
I'll come up there and hunt with you Peco

YOU WOULD BE MORE THAN WELCOME AND ENJOY THE GROUSE WOODS!I'm feeling a lot of love brother Kevin,a lot of love......Nice spelling "PECO" good name for a dog. OOPS.....

Look up...I fixed it.. I wasnt quite awake this morning.... (good excuse)

I think that would be a blast to do, and a good learning experience for the doggys.

This is the absolute best thread i have seen in awhile here especially when i see Leroy get alittle flustered.. I thought that is what the beer is for to keep you Mellloooo...


Oh and Rob I know which dog you are talking about......

I will just stay out of it.

I will just stay out of it.

Posted By Top Dog Kennels on 26 Feb 2010 03:43 PM
I will just stay out of it.

WHY? Your points are very good IMO....

My son has a couple dogs that are fantastic hunters and point awesome no titles other than the one i put a SHR on. I am getting them tested right now, I would not hesitate to use them if everything comes out ok, He doesnt have the money to run these tests, But i know what his dogs can do, after all how many of the puppies that you all sell actually go and run hunt tests and go and run APLA? my guess is maybe 2 out of 10 if that. BUT how many of those pups end up in the field? quite a few, So titles are great but i think the perfomance of the male and female in the field trumphs the tests IMO

 

Posted By Top Dog Kennels on 26 Feb 2010 03:43 PM
I will just stay out of it.

Leroy, I had that thought on the way back from the veterans thing I did today.Then got home and to a look at what transpired after my defense of hunting dogs post...(you would have liked the one that got ate up in cyberspace it was a masterpiece,IMO) ..............I really was hoping for an invite to hunt SoDak.. ...Paco

Wow...I got diverted for a couple of days and the thread got a new life!

I have appreciated this forum as a great source of info and also I have had a chance to talk to a few of you and all have been very helpful. 

My study has reached a ppoint of "pedigree overload"   I think the key is I need to begin to get out and both look at dogs (ie parents)...and maybe try to get to a field event and begin to watch dogs work. 

I am trying to take my time...and have adopted one poster's advice to not go look at puppies until you are ready to buy into that litter...I am sure my wife and I would end up with a puppy from the first litter we looked at.

I will keep reading this and other threads and continue to learn...and with spring coming in the not too distant future...try to get out and see some of the dogs...

BTW...I did go look at one pregnant yellow...stud is GMPR/MH (Cashman's Super Trooper) bitch has no titles but bitch mother is Kellog lines with no titles...bitch father is Sauk River "Jake" (4GMPR MH).  Didn't fall in love with the bitch...not sure that is based upon "knowledge" but probably emotion.  I need to see more dogs which is what I will try to do this spring.

Again...thank all for the comments and input...TomCat

P.S.  We are taking care of our sons 11 year old lab for a week later in March...may be a good "refresher" on large dog ownership ...TomCat

P.P.S.  Another thought...earlier poster may be right that a "started" dog may be a more "informed" choice?  One question I have is that I would be concerned that a breeder amy keep 2-3 promising pups and train for a year...and sell the one he does not want to train further and title...is that not a real world way it happens?  TomCat

 Another thought...earlier poster may be right that a "started" dog may be a more "informed" choice?  One question I have is that I would be concerned that a breeder amy keep 2-3 promising pups and train for a year...and sell the one he does not want to train further and title...is that not a real world way it happens?  TomCat

I was the earlier poster....That may be how it works for some, but I bet not for most. Most realise how much more money they can get for a started pup...(I take it you have not priced them yet ) 
No matter how the kennel ends up with a started dog, you can pretty much see what caliber of a dog he is.
I don't know about you, but its alot easier buying stock in a company thats all ready built than one that has yet to open its doors.  Good Luck  Freddie

I had considered buying a started dog, for alot of the reasons mentioned.  I could see exactly what the dog is capable of and it would take alot of the guess work out.  The price is higher but there is alot of time and work put into the pup.  I talked it over with the wife and decided we did not want to miss out on the puppy experience, (good and bad).  I have had several pups and part of the fun is the training, although thats pretty much all the frustraion also.  For me buying a dog that was imprinted by someone else just doesnt compute.  It seems easier for the other dogs to intoduce them to a pup than an older dog also.  The last thing I thought about, like the OP is why did the breeder keep this pup.  Is it one noone else would take or is it a better dog that he saw something in and was worth training to bring a better price.

Posted By hooligan on 24 Feb 2010 07:21 PM
OD, I think a lot of the "dam's influence" is environmental-it's what she passes on to her pups-or foals-while she is with them. I think we agree-just different words?

You're talking about effects that are more than "environmental." One is "cultural" and it would relate to what the pups learn from the dam. Another is "epigenetic" which (in part) relates to how very early experience actually modifies how the genetic program is carried out. (sort of and with the disclaimer that I'm not as well versed in this as I'd like to be). Other than that 1. ALL the mitochondrial DNA comes from the Dam - but may have little to do with behavior. 2. The entire Y chromosome comes from the Sire (less than 100 genes, I think, mostly related to "maleness" in one way on another.) Jere

Posted By Trout Bum on 26 Feb 2010 08:21 AM

Gum, Hunting ditch parrots in SD is a whole lot different than hunting grouse in the woods, sharptail or prairie chickens on the prairies or quail in Oklahoma.. Any dog can look like a champion where the birds are thick.

 

Few dogs know how to find and handle birds on the prairie’s and then hit the woods, find and pin down a  bird when you might have to walk for 3 hours before an encounter.  That’s where you separate the bird dogs from the windshield wiper dogs. FT retrievers wouldn’t stand a snowballs chance finding a bird when the going gets tough. It takes a hunting dog and one with many hours in the field learning what it takes when the going gets tough.

I want the best breeding I can find for that meat dog, repeat breeding from proven parents that know how to find and handle birds.

Right on, Randy.

Didn't Mike issue a challenge to the world to bring on the National Champion and he'd take it on in an all venue hunt over several days with a young dog (I remember 16 months old) prepared by a teenager tutored by him? Maybe he was gonna train the pup and the teenager would handle it in the hunt - don't remember the details and don't have time to look it up. Ask him about the details. I remember suggesting a $100 grand pot, winner take all but he balked at that.

Jere