Deleted by author.

 

Most likely it was the heat.
Were her parents not tested for EIC?



.

I dont know but glad your pup is OK....

Have you tested her for EIC?

She is from Blackjack Kennels and her sire (Tub) is EIC, PRA, and CNM clear.

So yes, she is EIC clear.

Should I have her checked out by a vet?

I have not tested her for EIC.

Do I need to if her sire tested clear?

Tub's clearances are listed on OFA. She could be a carrier, if her dam is untested-but carriers don't exhibit symptoms. Carriers are free of the disease themselves, but can pass the gene on to their offspring.

Whatever it was, it's not good that it happened to a 6 month old pup. WATCH THE HEAT! Heat stroke is a dog killer. Read the overheated dog thread. And be extra super cautious now-you don't want it to happen again.

It really torques me off that this was posted on the website. Roberts pup is out of Tub & Tori. Here are the clearances from the OFA website.

ELI'S BLACKJACK TORI
Registration: SN79690607 (AKC) Sire: SN03726710
No photo on file
Breed: LABRADOR RETRIEVER Dam: SN36059108
Sex: F *Titles:
Color: YELLOW CHIC #: 14049
Birthdate: Jan 1 2001 Addtl. Reg. #
DNA Profile:
LR-135926E31F-PI HIPS Aug 28 2003 Sep 10 2003 31 EXCELLENT
LR-EL20226F31-PI ELBOW Aug 28 2003 Sep 10 2003 31 NORMAL
LR-33591 CERF Aug 19 2008 Aug 19 2008 91 TESTED: 02,03,08
LR-CNM87/99F-VPI CENTRONUCLEAR MYOPATHY Apr 10 2009 May 5 2009 99 NORMAL
LR-EIC564/99F-VPI EXERCISE INDUCED COLLAPSE Apr 8 2009 May 5 2009 99 NORMAL


WANNAMAKER'S HOT TUB
Registration: SN63329307 (AKC) Sire: SM83369305
No photo on file
Breed: LABRADOR RETRIEVER Dam: SM84501701
Sex: M *Titles: SH
Color: BLACK CHIC #:
Birthdate: Apr 20 1999 Addtl. Reg. #
DNA Profile: V191531
LR-115812G25M-VPI HIPS May 29 2001 Jul 3 2001 25 GOOD
LR-33589 CERF Aug 19 2008 Aug 19 2008 112 TESTED: 02,03,08
LR-EIC139/113M-VPI EXERCISE INDUCED COLLAPSE Sep 22 2008 Nov 10 2008 113 NORMAL
LR-CNM84/119M-VPI CENTRONUCLEAR MYOPATHY Apr 10 2009 May 5 2009 119 NORMAL
LR-PRA525/119M-VPI PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY Apr 17 2009 May 5 2009 119 GENOTYPICALLY NORMAL FOR prcd-PRA

It shouldn't "torque" you off. Education about clearances is best done by breeders, because that's who has the information and sells the pups. Robert is worried about his pup-probably calling you first would have been the best thing-and he came looking for information. Might be helpful if you posted that info on your website...lots of people don't know to look on OFA, and many don't bother because many people don't send the results in even if they have them. Kudos to you for testing and for reporting to OFA!

Heat stroke - 1 st suspicion. Has she EVER shown ANY signs of exercise intol;erance before? Doesn't finish retrieves w/o a rest, can't wait to spit bumper out to catch breath, anything?

Not applicable to this dog (both parents "normal," but, I'm concerned (w/o checking) about the statement "but carriers don't exhibit symptoms." Maybe I mis-remember and I'm not taking the time to check; but didn't UMN publish something that indicated a small % of carriers do exhibit symptoms of some sort?

EIC is quite interesting as affected dogs exhibit a VERY wide range of "affectedness." My bet is there is more than one gene involved.

Jere

Real interesting. We know very little about EIC. There is more gray area than knowledge about the subject. Just my opinion but seems to be a witch hunt to some degree particularly on this forum.

Here is a question if every person on this forum tested and only kept clear dogs what would that do to the gene pool? What affect will it have over all for PL's in the country?

Another question. You have a clear female. Two potential sires one clear one a carrier. One has titles at the highest level in all hunt tests organizations and has proven to be a producer of excellent dogs. He is a carrier? The other is has achieved a GMPR after several attempts who is clear and has not proven to produce good dogs. Who do you breed to?

Do you produce a better dog or do make EIC the numnber one priority? I know what UMN has written about this.

I'm not sure how many dogs I have worked with and have seen at events. I have never seen a dog go down with EIC. I'm talking hundreds of dogs. There can be no doubt just by probabilty alone that many of those dogs must have been affected. We know very little about this and yet we are in the knee jerk mode?

I certainly have my opinion.

Gary

The University of Minnesota information sheet on EIC clearly states that carriers do not exibit symtoms. They have been studying it for over a decade and have done full genome scans on both affected and unaffected dogs that are related. They seem pretty certain that they have identified the genetic marker for it and the genetic mutation that causes it.

I would test the pup just to make sure.  Now this is just hear say but I have been hearing that they can tell you if your dog is an affected, carrier, or clear but some people are saying the combinations of breeding these dogs may be producing different out comes than the published chart.  I have no facts on this but this is what I have been hearing at the hunt test games.

First of all I want to apologize to Jeff P. and Blackjack Kennels.  I did not know to check the OFA site for clearances.  They probably told me and I forgot.  That is my stupidity and inexperience in this realm.

I researched the breeder and I decided on BJ because of all the positive things I found.  I stick to this and want everyone to know that they have been wonderful to me and my family.  Always available to answer my questions.  I SHOULD HAVE gone to them first.  I didnt and hope that no one thinks negatively of them due to my post.  I have nothing negative to say about them and if it weren't for them I wouldn't have the pleasure of having Val, who is a wonderful dog and has much potential (IMO).

Again, I apologize.  I hope that this doesn't cause any problems for BJ and hope that everyone understands.  I may bow-out of the APLA due to this, as I am very embarassed about the whole thing.  I will think about it. 

All of you have been nice to me and I appreciate that.

 

Thanks,

 

Robert

Posted By PtLabRobert on 30 Jun 2009 07:34 AM

First of all I want to apologize to Jeff P. and Blackjack Kennels.  I did not know to check the OFA site for clearances.  They probably told me and I forgot.  That is my stupidity and inexperience in this realm.

I researched the breeder and I decided on BJ because of all the positive things I found.  I stick to this and want everyone to know that they have been wonderful to me and my family.  Always available to answer my questions.  I SHOULD HAVE gone to them first.  I didnt and hope that no one thinks negatively of them due to my post.  I have nothing negative to say about them and if it weren't for them I wouldn't have the pleasure of having Val, who is a wonderful dog and has much potential (IMO).

Again, I apologize.  I hope that this doesn't cause any problems for BJ and hope that everyone understands.  I may bow-out of the APLA due to this, as I am very embarassed about the whole thing.  I will think about it. 

All of you have been nice to me and I appreciate that.

 

Thanks,

 

Robert

IMO I dont think you did anything wrong. You had A bad experience with your pup and out of concern you went to A website where there are many members that have the same concern and are willing to help. Good for you for asking questions and trying to educate yourself. I do not think you said anything that slandered anyone or any kennel and this experience would not keep me from looking at BJ if I was looking for a pup. I think they just took your trying to educate yourself and your concern incorrectly. Sometimes email and forum post cause that because you are not face to face. Hope you and Val stick around and enjoy your time together.

I agree with Hooli - quote : "Might be helpful if you posted that info on your website...lots of people don't know to look on OFA, and many don't bother because many people don't send the results in even if they have them".



.

Posted By sonicman on 29 Jun 2009 11:50 PM
The University of Minnesota information sheet on EIC clearly states that carriers do not exibit symtoms. They have been studying it for over a decade and have done full genome scans on both affected and unaffected dogs that are related. They seem pretty certain that they have identified the genetic marker for it and the genetic mutation that causes it.

Actually, what the UMN says and has said is rather equivocal. They only state that clearly if that's what one wants to read.
see , for instance

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/img/assets/9388/EIC%20Info%20for%20VDL%207-28-08.pdf

(there are several versions of this document on the web - each says something a bit different

One such document says: (bold italics emphasis added)

"A dog’s particular combination of E or N forms of the EIC gene is known as its genotype. The genotype of a normal dog that is clear of the EIC mutation is designated as N/N. E/N dogs are referred to as carriers or heterozygotes. Our data thus far shows that dogs with the E/N genotype do not typically show either strong or consistent signs of EIC. More than 95% of dogs that have the classical signs of EIC, and have had multiple well-documented collapse episodes, have the E/E genotype. Such dogs may be referred to as homozygotes for the EIC mutation.

"The genotype of a dog that is clear of the EIC mutation is designated as N/N, while E/N dogs are referred to as carriers or heterozygotes. Our testing to date has identified more than 1,000 dogs with the E/N genotype. Approximately 96% of these dogs have no signs of EIC or any type of collapse, while approximately 4% have been reported to show some signs of collapse or intolerance associated with exercise. The vast majority of these collapses can be attributed to other medical conditions, or their signs are not consistent with the classic signs of EIC that starts with wobbliness in the rear legs. "Similarly, approximately 5% of all dogs with the N/N genotype are reported by owners to show some signs of an exercise-associated weakness or collapse that is likely due to other causes and is not classic EIC. Thus, we feel there is sufficient evidence to state that carriers of the EIC gene are not more likely to show signs of a collapse than are clear dogs, and that any collapse symptoms they are very likely to be EIC."

The last sentence above is rather difficult to interprete - at least I find it so.

In the late October 2008 reports on test results:
"Interpretation
...

"Clear: Your dog is clear of the mutation associated with EIC. This means that your dog has two copies of the normal gene and therefore is highly unlikely to be susceptible to the classic sydrome of EIC. However, this result does not rule out the possibility that your dog could have a collapse condition that is different from the condition most Labrador Rertievers have.

"Carrier: Your dog is a carrier of the mutation associated with EIC. This means that your dog has one copy of the normal form of the gene and one copy of the mutated form of the gene associated with EIC susceptibility. Our research indicates that two mutated copies of the gene are almost always required for EIC susceptibility. However, a small percentage of carrier dogs, such as yours, have collapsed under instances of intense exercise and/or excitment/stress. At present, we are unable to state if this collapse is the result of the EIC mutation, or from another unidentified cause. ..."



Jere

I like to add my two cents worth. I was fortunate enough to meet Robert at the Julie training seminar in MO. I sure he did not mean to slam Black Jack kennel, and I didn't take it as one. He LOVES his dog and was only asking out of concern for her. Yes he should have talked to BJ kennel first, but live and learn. Robert you have nothing to be embarrased about, you were only concerned about Val. You are to good of a person to leave APLA.

I don't think Black Jack kennel has anything to worry about. I to have a dog from them. They have one of the best if not the best warrenty on thier pups. They most be doing alot right to move as many litters as they do. When I picked up my pup I could not have been treated any better. I waited a year and a half for my pup and the correspondence was great.

Maybe a quick reaction from the breeder and a lesson learned from a new guy.

I think that what they actually are saying in the article qouted about is that 4% of dogs that are EIC carriers exibit some signs of intolerance to exercise of which the "vast majority" can be attributed to other conditions. They go on to state that 5% of dogs that are EIC clear exibit some intolerance to exercise which similarly can be attributed to other factors.

They conclude that EIC carriers are no more likely to show signs of collapse than clear dogs, and that further more any dog that does display actual EIC collapse symtyms is in fact most likely an EIC affected dog.

They are NOT saying that 4% of EIC carriers have EIC episodes, they are saying the opposite, that they believe that they are not.

I think that in the October 2008 report they are basicly saying that they can't "prove" their theory about this 4-5% of dogs.  That would seem to be because they are relying on reports from the owners, but they do not actually have access to these dogs to prove that these episodes are something other than EIC.

Just my interpretation.

Sonicman,
You were able to post the information showing the stats of your dog.  Why, then should you be so torqued off? 

If there's one thing in this life that I will not sacrifice (and I know you were just trying to smooth things over), it's having to apologize for not knowing something you "should've" known.

...it'll be a cold day in...well...you know...before I'd do that.  Inexperience or not.

Sonicman,
I appreciate what you posted, and would consider your kennel in the future.  However, you must understand that when a fella' feels in trouble, and you may be the cause of that trouble, don't think for a second he'd believe anything you'd tell him.  I know I'd feel the same.  I'd seek information else where first. You may never have run into this but I know people personally who have had these (EIC) kinds of problems.  It isn't fun, if you've never been there.  Thanks again, for your clarification, but don't let it bother so much.  I don't think he meant any harm.