We had some conversations about wild bird encounters last year and I vowed to try to keep a better handle on the types of encounters I had.  Overall I have fallen pretty short of keeping good records but I did keep track of some basic stats that may at least help some in understanding what to expect with hunting these dogs.  Its mid-December and sadly I am about through my wild bird opportunities for the year.   Its hard to get all the variables into neat categories but here is what I collected:

First the basic info:
- This over 8 days of wild bird hunting (pheasants)
- 7 of the 8 days were purely dogs on birds, generally 1-2 hunters (no "blocker"). 
- None of these numbers include a large pushed bird flush - they are situations where the bird is pointed or flushes within 10-15 yards of me.
- Numbers (unless specified) are on roosters and excludes "unproductive" points where the bird has ran off and was not relocated.
- I kept track of Cruz and did not include birds specific to Yeager but about 1/3 the time they are hunted in brace so Yeager's presence may have helped pressure some runners to sit.
- Nearly all hunting was done in grass.  Pushed food plots 3 times and did not record those bird numbers here.
- Hunted 3 days in central IL in early Nov, 1.5 NW IA 1.5 NE SD in mid Nov, and 3 in North-Central SD in mid-December.

Production was 36 "killable" birds over the 8 days or 4.5 per day.  I shot some, some were missed or hard to ID and let fly, some shot by others.  9 of the 36 were "walk-up" points (25%).  Rooster walk-up points were generally at some distance from me.   Most close killable contacts (estimate 60-70%), were wild flushes where the dog was actively working a runner and pinned the bird between us or otherwise cut off the birds escape and it wild-flushed right around me prior to the dog establishing a final point.  The remaining 10% or so I would consider SOB (stumble on bird).  Again, numbers above are for roosters.  I didn't keep track of the rooster to hen ratio on actual "walk up" points over the whole period but in the last 3 days it ran 12%.   

We had some good pointing conditions and some bad pointing conditions.  Mostly the birds had been pressured and due to conditions most places, we had a much higher percentage of older birds in the bag than I normally see.  Hopefully I can add some January stats to this.

Footnote:  Good SOB story - Working a big grass section with creek breaks.  Cruz is working along and suddenly stops to "drop a deuce".  We are working wind at our back and while he is "gettin' er done" I walk past him to get up wind, stand there to wait and a rooster flushes less than 20 feet downwind of us.  I killed it, dog retrieved it, then went back to finishing the job.  First "kennel point" I have seen produce a bird. 

  

Thanks Bruce, keep it coming. I like this type stuff from all of you seasoned wild bird hunters, as it gives me an idea what to expect when I finally get to go with my 2.

Bruce
Thats known as a sucker point. You know,, the one you tell the new guy to sneak up behind the dog and kick em up.

All I know is we had fun on this trip!!

GREAT help...especially for a newbie pointing dog hunter. I am not the least surprised at the 25% walk up ratio. As you stated, you were hunting mostly in grass. Was the height of the grass generally low enough that you could fairly continuously see your dog(s)??


Much of the wild opportunities I've had here in southern Idaho is VERY all....chest high or higher bushy weeds which is GREAT overhead cover for the fez...so no wonder they are in there.


Of course, they come out in the mornings/evenings for feed and gravel but around here (at least where I have the opportunity to go) we are BUSHWHACKING much of the time. And that presents a HUGE problem re: the "point ratio." Any fez that doesn't hear hunter/dog crashing through the brush from 100 yards off must have been born with a genetic hearing defect!


Assuming your 4.5 killable per day were on hunts of 4.5 hours or more then obviously, you averaged +/- 1 BPH (bird per hour) (-:
That sounds about right in my experience.


I have an OUTSTANDING preserve area a couple of hours from me covering 500 acres or so of fabulous cover where we are never more than 15 minutes from flowing water for the dogs and where the cover is rarely more than thigh high and often knee high. The birds aren't planted but simply released to fly from an ATV and those that flee the property inevitably return (according to the owners) to the pen they were raised and fed in.


We only pay for birds flushed up (whether in range or not) so it's the most "sporty" preserve hunting I've ever done.



But last hunt Cody did flush a couple up out of range...after having locked up BEAUTIFULLY on the first two encounters but both times there were ravines or trees that blocked our view so I don't know if he SOB'd them or bumped them after a point of some length.



So, I'm still struggling with the issue of how far to let him range. I've whined about that dilemma a few times in other threads and the consensus seems to be...."let him run and figure it out for himself."



My freezer is full enough now that I may go again on Friday and just let him go and keep my own stats on SOBs, short or no points...and points. My HOPE would be 50% full on points which just as hopefully, I won't miss so he gets his retrieve "reward" vs. no reward if he busts them up.


(-:

Jim,

Just some other points to consider. Some days I shot my limit and did not have a walk up point. Other days I may have had multiple limits of walk-up points. These are averages over the period. Some of those days I hunted big switch grass or thick cover and I may have had a walk up point and never knew it (I dont run a beeper collar). The points I reference are rooster points - that 12% rooster to hen (point) ratio is probably pretty accurate over time. I am not saying I "see" one rooster to 9 hens but the walk up wild bird points run that way. Example on one day I had two walk-up pointed rooster kills and about 14 solid walk-up hen points. That is pretty typical for me.

Early in heavier cover my dogs hunt closer and check in with me. Later in shorter grass or linear cover they run big and I dont reel them in at all. My opintion/hunt style is that I like to hunt big open grass and I will let my dogs roll at whatever range they want. The walk up points I get are generally at distance but as you can see most birds are shot closer because the dog had gotten out away from me and cut off the "exit" route of the wild runner. When my dogs run big in those open fields I get more bird contacts and I dont care if it is a solid walk up or if the dog works the bird back to the gun.  When a wild running rooster gets forced back and pinned between the hunter and dog they will rarely sit for a point but you get some beautiful flushes right around your feet - result is the same and is just as impressive to me (maybe more) than a pointed bird. That is no different from the foot-hunting GSP's I hunt with.

Letting them roll the last half of the days, I can only recall two birds that were pressured to a flush at distance - Cruz had one so, from him, I had perhaps 7 killable pointed roosters at distance to one flush plus when the dogs run big they force runners back to me and produce twice the pointed bird kills. My experience in the big open grass fields, if you have a really close working dog, you are just not going to see the number of birds. So, I let them run as big as they feel is necessary in open cover. They have been out as far as perhaps 300 yards at times but that is not the norm. Generally they like to work in the 50-150 yard range.
 
Conditions and quality of ground vary greatly in my numbers.  Plus I am sure people hunt very different styles and cover. 

GREAT advice!!!! THANKS!!!!


As noted several times....this pointing thing is TOTALLY new to me and IMHO more complicated. With flushing dogs, it's pretty much one dimensional...the dog hunts close....PERIOD....or with my former GREAT Springer, in standing corn, he figured out how to run PAST the running birds and turn them back into me. I don't know how many other flushing dogs would abandon HOT ground sent to run past them...but 'ol Tony did it all on his own after about age 3.



I guess I'll just have to dedicate the rest of this season...and maybe next to just letting him run and see what happens. I can ALWAYS hack him back in I guess.


But I am VERY grateful for your outstanding and informative advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Best,
Jim

Bruce,

Thanks for the great info. In regard to your strategy of letting the dogs run big, I'm wondering if you do the same thing if your buddy has a flushing dog.

I can definitely understand the desire to let the dog go in big grass, especially if you are alone or have only a couple guys. It just seems like when you have 8 guys working a strip with blockers &flankers, that dog running ahead can make some folks unhappy. I've been wondering how to handle this on my upcoming pup. I think i sort of hunted the point right out of my last dog and ended up hunting him in close, as a flusher.

Thank you, and have a Merry Christmas.

Interesting points and just another example of how CONFUSED us newbie pointing dog owners become when venturing into this new realm. But I would avoid your problem by never hunting with more than 2 other guys. I know that keeps me out of massive fields of standing corn and to each his own...but I just don't dig that kind of hunting. Last week, Cody and I had our first experience with two flushing dogs and 2 other guns. The score was Jim/Cody 5....Guy with golden 2...guy with flushing lab 1. I was a PROUD Papa!!! (-:

Gchase, that is a great point. There are some on this forum that never do anything but push heavy cover, or hunt in that 8 person group, or always hunt with 1-2 hunters and rarely push cover. Then there are those of us who hit all those scenarios in one season. I live in Indiana and we dont have much pheasant production ground. Closest for me is some good ground in Central IL. When I hunt that it is mostly in a larger group situation and it is fairly heavy cover. After opening weekend I will have opportunitities to do the 1-2 hunter thing without the "block and drive" tactics. When I head west for the rest of my season hunts I get a combination of high switch grass and low prairie grass and it is nearly always a 1-2 hunter situation. So, my hunt opportunities are all over the board.

My first PL, Cody, had a great point and his first wild bird season came at 11 mos old for him. I was told by people not to let him hunt with the big group and flushers. I tried to do that by keeping away from the larger group opening weekend but realized that the dog and I were just getting screwed out of hunting when we did that. So, I hunted him in the big group and he did great.

All of my dogs have just been conditioned to hunt in gun range when we are doing a block and drive. I am sure at first I pulled them in or whistled them when they got out too far but they just seem to know that when there are a bunch of people and other dogs in the field they hunt in gun range. Maybe its more the cover that determines it because we only do the block and drive in heavier cover. Cruz works right in front of me and runs about a 40 yard loop rather than traditional quartering, Yeager does the same thing but is not picky about who he hunts with. He just runs the line anywhere he gets better scent :-). They certainly will point in this situation but dont get many opportunities. If they hit a piece of knee high light grass then it is hard to keep them in and I let them go.

I fairly regularly hunt with flushers as well as other pointing breeds. I have never found the dogs to be in much conflict with each other. Generally if they are out hunting they are working in different areas and rarely are in contact with the same bird. The previous 5 years trips to SD I have hunted along side a buddy of mine with a very nice flushing lab. They hunt great together. There is rarely a situation where one dog may bust anothers bird and when we can see the pointing dog in a scent cone or locked up, his handler just hits a sit whistle on the flushing lab and we go to the point. That happens a lot on preserves but not much on wild birds.

Yeager was nearly 5 when I got him and I had my other 2 from pups but they had a lot of training and exposure (they had both passed APR tests) by the time their first season rolled around at 11 or 12 months old. Putting a 5 or 6 month old pup in that large group fray may not be the best thing depending on the dog. It freaks some young dogs out the first few days of hunting in large groups, others are fine and just eat it up.

Bottom line, or should I say "it has been my experience" that these dogs are capable of changing hunt styles automatically without much or any handler direction between different types of cover and hunting situations. I have always felt that dogs are very "situational" learners. If you consistently set an expectation of them that they can link to a certain situation then the smart ones figure it out pretty quickly. Even the mildly brain damaged ones figure it out eventually. Lots of simiarities with advanced retriever training - you cant expect the dog to do it unless you show it to them first.

You have to understand what you have intentionally or unintentionally set up for them though. Example is that we were working a ditch line at Marra's place in Iowa this fall and Cruz wanted to run big. Cover was low and long and is a situation he would normally have been expected to run big. He had multiple unproductive points along this long grass strip and I could tell the birds were running the strip and likely bunching up somewhere like a corner or the strip end. Normally I would let him loop around large to pin or push a runner back to me but they were really skittish and I was afraid if he got down to them (100+ yards from me) and made one wrong move they would all bust. So I sat him, walked up to him, gave him an "easy" command and we hunted up to a bend in that cover and shot three roosters in about a 40 yard area of that grass strip where there were about a dozen birds bunched up in one spot.

This is all just a matter of exposing a good dog to different things, letting him know what you want without over-controling, and establishing that "communication" between you and the dog. When that comes together it is very cool. Cover, Group/Individual, long/short, are to me all just things you need to be exposed to as a bird producing team.

A visit to "bsmiley" web site revealed the following:

[B]"Cruz has had another great year. He earned his MH in August and his 4XGMPR in April at 30 months of age. Cruz has made history by being the:

Youngest dog to achieve 4XGMPR (and first Chocolate)

ONLY dog to earn the 4XGMPR, AKC Master Hunter, and UKC Hunting Retriever Champion titles at TWO YEARS OF AGE" [/B]


NO WONDER this man so obviously knows what he's talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


best,
Jim

Great and informative stats Bruce.  My observation from this year has been about a 20% point rate on roosters.  Haven't had more than 1 point in the last month...all the survivors appear to have paid their tuition!  In fact, most birds the last month have been flushing a good 15-20 yds (or much, much more) in front of the dogs, once pressured.  As a result, I've have my dog hunt in gun range since about the second week of season.  Usually let her run bigger in shorter grass, but she naturally hunts closer in heavier cover, and checks in quite often. 

I think these dogs figure a lot of this stuff out on their own as they gain experience.  Last week we had a runner in knee high grass that Abby got hot on...I watched as she trailed the bird at a good pace out to about 60 yds.  She took a glance back to see where I was, and checked up.  Once I got close, she resumed the hunt and cornered the bird in a small thicket.  Didn't hold for a point, busted on the other side of the thicket at 15-20 yds.  It's been really neat to see her develop into a "Team Player".  On another note, we sometimes hit some heavier cover for phez at the bottom of the chukar hill before we go up the hill.  She'll hunt close in that cover, but as soon as we start up the hill, she starts ranging out, knowing that the game has changed...no need to tell her, she just realizes the change. 

Again, thanks for your stats and observations...we minor league players need to keep in mind that those are the stats of a major league all star!  Also, those are some nice photos of you and the boys!

Greg

I appreciate the comments but this was not about pimping my dogs, it was about talking about what we realisticaly see when we hunt and how these dogs perform across a spectrum of cover on wild birds. Some people who havent been around PL's or pointing dogs in general have some really unrealistic expectations on their performance on wild birds.

Jim, those are mostly retriever titles and it is fun to play those games but learning to work wild pheasants is a totally different game and does not require that level of retriever training. I am sure it helps in building the working relationship with the dog and it definitely makes for a better waterfowl partner but a dog does not need any where near that level of retriever training to be a smack down upland dog. It actually requires the dog to radically change some gears going between the two but changing gears is what this versatile dog thing is all about.

I dont consider myself an expert.  There are people that are way better at understaning where they hunt.  Some days I struggle also and hunt the wrong places the wrong way.  I just allways fall back on following my dogs around as the highest odds. 

Greg, sounds like she is really getting there if she is figuring out transition from pheasant to chukar habitat. Plus I know how many ducks she sees all year.

Dogs generally cant cover the same amount of ground in the same amount of time in heavy cover vs thin cover. Makes open prairie land, thinner grass, easier for big running. Cattails heavy cover ect usually invokes close dog work because of the time it takes to get threw the thick stuff. I've noticed this not only in our PL's but also with GSP's and Brits.

Thanks to all for the great points and commentary. Some of these ideas are new to me, but even when not, it's very helpful to hear reaffirm some of what my instincts are telling me.

My 1st PL is now retired and I'm hoping that the breeding for my next pup will occur in January. That means the pup will be only 7 or 8 months by the time pheasant season rolls around. I do an annual South Dakota trip with about 8 guys and, if you have ever been there, you know how crazy these hunts can be. There can be hundreds of birds in a single strip of milo and young dogs often look like their eyes are spinning in pinwheels.

My instinct is to avoid throwing a young dog into that kind of excitement because it's very difficult to maintain any means of control. On the other hand, if I can sneak off to walk a ditch or do some big walking in grass fields, then I thought it would worthwhile to get the dog some exposure. We don't have all that many pheasants where I live in Colorado and it's hard to pass up a chance to get the dog's nose on some wild birds.

I just cannot wait to get started again. This is the first year in the last 10 that I have not had the company of my pup and it was quite depressing.

Bruce, no need to apologize. I don't think anyone felt you were pimping your dogs...buy hey...if you don't, who will? I and others are merely expressing gratitude for the information you provide which gives us an excellent "baseline" to compare our own experiences with. As a "reformed flushing dog owner" (not really, I loved all my former flushers) I can say that this new pointing thing adds a whole nuther level of complexity both for owner and our dogs who have to be taught, for example, not to bust birds when that is exactly what the close hunting flusher is supposed to do. I enjoy the challenge of learning new things but just hate being a dufus which is what I feel like much of the time...which is why I am so grateful for all the great advice from you and others. best, Jim

Jim, no problem. I am just sensitive to that subject and wanted to clarify it was not about my dogs but they are my examples for a discussion of hunt style.

GChase, yes that is quite a circus to throw a pup into if they have not been around it. There are those who have introduced way more pups than I have that can comment better. I would say if the pup was really bold and had been in the field quite a bit I would have no problem with blocking with him and possibly he would get a retrieve at the end of the push. That will jack them up. Either way, getting a young dog away like that in good bird ground to hunt a ditch by yourself is, in my opinion the ultimate in exposing him to birds. Take every opportunity you get for this. I (this is just me) would shoot not only pointed birds but the birds the dog cuts off and pins between you and the dog. I am more than happy to reward a dog that is learning to work runners back to the gun and not bust them on the way. I am certain others will disagree with that but (IMO) its real world bird production.

I've been doing quite a bit of upland the last 10 years in the Dakota's, Nebraska, Colorado, and Kansas.
It's been with 4 different PL's over this time period. I don't have Bruce's stat's but these are my observations.

Each one has there own style, and when you get a real pointy one like Cruz, it make the hunt much different.
My youngest dog is also very pointy. Meaning, he locks up almost all the time. He is also the only dog that I never whoa trained.
Then bird runs, he re-positions and points again.
He doesn't run in hard, but actually slows down when birds are around. The walk up points almost always happen if the bird holds.
If not, I follow the dog/points and eventually the bird flushes if they are running, usually 30 feet or so out.
This is the only dog that I owned that I have seen this happen consistently.

My other dogs would point, and if the birds held, great. If not, they tracked the bird and flushed it. No re-positioning on the point.
The re-positioning is not a trained trait, but experience (in my opinion). I wonder if I just let my previous dogs go hunt like this one, they may have gotten the experience to figure it out.

I also do heel them like Bruce when I get to the end of a place I think the birds are holding because they were running so far head, and I think they will take off. Reducing the dog pressure gives me a closer shot, especially after opener.

Just my two cents.

Vic

Vic and Bruce

I can understand your reasoning with the holding back at the end but its been my experience after doing that for 7 or 8 days in a row, is like not rewarding the dog for working the field in much the same way as if he wasnt allowed to retrieve a bird you shot after he pointed it. I know you may not hunt that many days in a row and Im sure its different in each dog. What I do is keep the dogs closer further out and actually quarter somewhat myself. This covers more ground while keeping the dog closer and still moving birds hopefully to an ambush point. The Quartering and keeping the dog close intentionally pulls the dog off of birds allowing them to run ahead and "cool off". You need to know your dog so you can tell if its close or not to the bird. If its close and not getting a wild flush I'll let him go a little longer to see if the bird will allow itself to be locked down. If not pulling the dog off the bird and "quartering" only to come back to where you know the dog left the scent and resuming the trailing can do two things. 1 May allow, (during the push), the dog to get closer to a bird that felt safe to now hunker down and stop running since the dog isnt on its tail. Or 2 give the bird the chance to run to the end or ambush point and settle in. If you take your time getting to the end or ambush point by quartering yourself you also help your dog.

The birds usually arent as worried about you catching them as they are your dog catching them. Therefore they often make a circle doubling back from the dog at a distance from the handler they feel safe with. I dont know how many times I have seen a dog work ahead and start to make a half moon around his motionless handler. Then the dog will start to move in a right angle often moving ahead in what was the original direction of the push. What often has happened in that situation especially here in SD where there are numerous birds, is the dog switched birds. Often if the owner in this scenario would move left if the dog went left the bird would either sit or flush due to its escape route being cut of. Ask yourself this, have you ever shot a bird that went behind you and then seen another bird flush when a dog went back after the downed bird. I watch this happen day after day. Realize our clients run their own dogs if they have dogs.

At any rate back to the "point" when we get to the end I let my dogs run hard and cover more ground and surprisingly (being the control freak I am) allow them out of gun range. If the birds have had time to sit we have increased our take dramatically.

After nearly 20 years of guiding here in SD I cant put numbers or stats to this scenario but can tell you it is the most common mistake I see.

Please dont take this as being a know it all post, just trying to help.

Scott

Scott. I dont take it as a know it all post at all. I appreciate it. It is a constant learning experience and I like to hear what works well with other people and you guys definitly kill a lot of birds down there. 

The interesting part is that what you describe is essentially how I hunt my dogs when we are hunting with a group and have blockers at the end of a field.  I have them stay in gun range through most of the push then cut them loose when we get near the end.

Are you saying you still hunt this way when by yourself or just 1-2 hunters?