being i hunted grouse for 46 yrs here in pa. very hard hunting and very wild birds.
unless a POINTING LAB can use it nose like other pointing bird dogs to catch scent,i really cant see it working here in pa.
i have been watching the videos and most of time when PL  finds bird its CLOSE.

that will not work here.lab has got to be able to hold and scent bird 20 yds away. THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING AND WOULD BE GREAT.
i was out with a lewellen setter that did that and we got many grouse.
 hunting pheasants in fields it is not important to have dog that can be 20 yds away locked up pointing,most of pheasants will hold,some run too.

having dog that points and does it from 20 yds out and if a PL  can do that, THAT IS SOMETHING TO SEE.......

i have a beau female that lock up on point from about 30 yars ouy my buddy said that if she was pointing a bird from the dirt sreet he was going to shoot me in the foot because i had her spayed i walk over too the feild flushed up a pheasent hen

Im sure Frank will chime in here as he is a big Grouse guy in MI.

That being said, most of the video out there is on pen birds. There are many threads on here discussing the difference in how dogs interact with pen birds and wild ones. While I have seen very close bird contacts/points at very close range, Inside 5 yards, the majority of points I have seen on wild birds are aprox 10-15 yards........regardless of breed. If you ever watch an NBDCA or other shoot to retrieve event with hard put down birds you will get the opportunity to watch many different breeds interact. You rarely see points from half a football field away, the put down birds just dont put off the scent that a wild bird up walking away will.

A properly trained, well bred PL will certainly hunt grouse very capably.......and theyll retrieve them for you out of the hackberry and other thickets youll find them in. I remember crawling in after a nice ruffed when I was a kid because our setters wouldnt go in.......

Every pointing dog, of any breed, that has ever hunted grouse has had to learn by experience to point further off the bird.  I've personally never seen a pointer pup start right out pointing 20 yards from the bird.  Point distance is a learned response to having his birds flush before his curiosity and pointing instinct are satisfied.  I didn't get in nearly the amount of grouse hunting that I would like to have in Kenai's young life, and he still tends to flush a lot of birds.  I fully expect that to change once he is done training on penned birds and adds a lot more experience.  I did notice that he tended to point further off the bird the longer I hunted each day.  This has also been my experience with him while hunting running pheasants.  After having a couple of runners frustrate him, he started pointing way off the bird.  He was rewarded by getting to retrieve a bird.  That was not always the case with the runners that he pointed more closely.  He has made adjustments within the span of one day's hunt.  I'm sure that with the repetition of this experience it will become a habit.

Just ran a NAHRA test.....
Our upland scenerio was that we were on a grouse hunt in the woods, I chimed that we didn't have grouse in that part of IOwa ;-), but the judges had planned to run in the shade anticipating hot weather so we did it. I left the test worried that the judges perhaps did not like what they saw, Beamer scented teh bird box about ten yards into the wooded area, locked up for few seconds the judge said, No way is he smelling it already..... I didn't tell him anything, let him stand on point for 5-10 seconds, then moved on ahead of him, he proceeded to staulk and point several times over the next forty to fifty yards before locking up HARD from about fifteen yards.... Like I said I was a little worried that the judges would ding him because he didn't quarter like a paint brush....

After getting our ribbon, I asked one of the judges how he scored it, "Are you kidding me, that was awesome, that is exactly how a dog has to handle grouse, you can come grouse hunting with me anytime!"

So yeah I think at least in that judges eyes they have the nose to do it......

BTW the gunners missed with SIX shots echoing in the canopy, I asked the judge if he thought that was enough of a steady test, tehn after watching the fly away in one direction we had to turn and run our land blind up a narrow window through the trees and brush.... 8-) Six shots at a flyaway then running a land blind, pucker factor indeed

Posted By sproulman on 14 Jun 2010 08:53 PM
being i hunted grouse for 46 yrs here in pa. very hard hunting and very wild birds.
unless a POINTING LAB can use it nose like other pointing bird dogs to catch scent,i really cant see it working here in pa.
i have been watching the videos and most of time when PL  finds bird its CLOSE.

that will not work here.lab has got to be able to hold and scent bird 20 yds away. THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING AND WOULD BE GREAT.
i was out with a lewellen setter that did that and we got many grouse.
 hunting pheasants in fields it is not important to have dog that can be 20 yds away locked up pointing,most of pheasants will hold,some run too.

having dog that points and does it from 20 yds out and if a PL  can do that, THAT IS SOMETHING TO SEE.......

I see it all the time: Twenty yards often is way too close ! I've had lock ups from 90 yds and more. Any pointing grouse dog has to be very careful.
See my reply to your other post, and darn it invite me out to North Central PA. (Gods Country). In fact if you are a doubter (and I get it through my radar you may be), I'll invite you the "Lodge" in Elk county this fall.
Two or three members from that camp are here this weekend for some night fishing for big brown trout. We are talking about setting up a grouse hunt for this fall.(mostly over my dogs, and a couple PA. GSP Grouse dogs). I'll let you know when and you can come on over.
You might want to give the wild Phez there due also, they can undue any pointing dog in a heartbeat......JMNSHO.

ps: The avatar picture is a point on a woodcock, paced it off,,,40 yds., and that is high on both ends correct. Some of these dogs are not too bad.

I've seen three owned by three of the previous posters, and would team them with mine and be very happy to show what they are capable of.

GOOD DOGS AND LOUSY OF EVERY BREED, SEE THE GOOD ONES , THEN JUDGE.

sorry you took ole sproul wrong.IN NO WAY AM I DOUBTING .never would do that to anyone.i was only trying to find out if PL  will scent like the other traditional pointing dogs.

yes, that would be nice on meeting for hunt.toby would like to come along too if possible.

Nothing took wrong, just being careful..
I'll PM you after this weekend,if we get a date set. If not I will let you know when we will be there,and would love to hunt the NORTH CENTRAL PA. MOUNTAIN region this fall........Best hunting to you this fall, Paco

yes, great idea. i did not know you handled PL  breeding.i will be due in about 2/3 yrs .if PL  is better than toby the flusher or pointer when he gets pheasant close.his point the tails wags too,ha.

ist week of grouse in pa is always best as grouse are still all together,shots are CLOSE .once leaves fall shots got to 30 yds and all grouse are bro up.
but your dog can be 20 yds out and you wont see him.this year the brush is UNREAL ,so are ticks. advantix 9 is must......

Sproul if my lab pup can smell a deer antler 20 yards away, a lab can scent a grouse that is 20 yards away. Pike

when i picked toby out of 10 puppys there was 1 puppy ,female who had nose that other 9 did not.i saw it but i wanted a black male and she was yellow.
she would run all around basement with her nose to floor.

no doubt that you can find dog in litter that has better nose than all the rest.most likely you got one.........

toby can smell a groundhog 100 yds away.he does it all time on my back porch. yet he will walk right by rabbit in my yard and never know its there.

Sproulman you probably picked the right pup. I sure don't want my dog running around with his or her nose on the ground. They'll find a lot more birds running with a high head....

TB

 

sproul I adopted my lab pup from a rescue that got him from an amish puppy mill in Lancaster Co., so if I did get one, I got lucky. Pike

I have never seen a dog that has what some people might call a bad nose. I have seen plenty of dogs, especially young dogs that did not know what birds were until the genetic bulb was turned on by teaching them about birds. I train traditional continental pointers as well as pointing labs. I never said I was smart! I own a english pointer, german shorthair and several pointing Labs. After working with hundreds of dogs I have come to the conclusion that generally speaking there is no difference in so called traditional pointers or Pl's ability to scent, locate or find birds. There are differences in individuals but not breed specific. Training has more influence on a dogs abilities than what kind of paint job they have. I have said this a hundred times I think, a good dog is a good dog regardless of the paint job. They get good at what they do the most. Could be eating lawn furniture or pinning down wild birds where ever.

Would also tell you that my GSP retrieves very well. He is not supposed to be able to do that according to some people. Apparently he does not care what others say he cant do. Just keeps on running marks in training and always has something in his mouth. Wish everyone would Let their dogs tell them what they can and cannot do!

Gary

PRG