I need some ideas  on how to control my dog at the line....and even before I get to the line....

At home...when its just her and I...there are no issues.....but when we go to our "training night"...with the HRC group I've joined...and she gets around other dogs.....she goes ballistic....she tries to drag me to the line...which I wont let her do...so its alot of "sit"...or "heel"...and if she breaks...she gets corrected...she's so amped up.....that she doesnt even react to a nick at 25.....all she wants to do is retrieve every bumper that is thrown...no matter what...

Last night one of the more experienced dog handlers ....brought a "place" board with a 3" eye hook thru it...and a 2' lead attached to it...we placed it where Ellie could watch other dogs run....the idea was that if she broke and ran for the bird she wouldnt go very far dragging a 2' x 3' carpet covered piece of plywood ... and she definatly wouldn't like the plywood bumping her legs as she ran.... nice theory.....duck calls went off...starter pistol was fired...and she drug that thing for 20 yards (before I stopped her)....looking back at it now and then like...Ha....you think this is going to slow me down????  the guy who built the board looks at me and says "Ive never seen that before" I didnt want her to hurt herself dragging this thing all over kingdom come...so I tried something different....

I brought her back...made her 'sit"....and stood on the board...you would have thought she was an Alaskan Husky...and I was a musher..she still tried to drag that thing around......I made her watch 3 more dogs run with me standing on it...then she ran...she stepped on all 4 marks...heeled perfectly..and delivered to hand...but I decided she needed to just sit and watch the other dogs...and not have the reward of retrieving if shes going to be a terrorist...

She NEEDS to learn control at and before the line...but I dont want to destroy her enthusiam either...or maybe I do...any ideas would be greatly appriecited....

stu...

Stu,

 I feel your pain, I am having the exact same problem.  Scout does great when she is by herself or it is her turn, but make her watch other dogs retrieve and she becomes a terrorist. 

Last Saturday at a training session she pulled a 24" tie out stake out of the ground .  Dragged the tie out stake and the 5' chain on a 20 yard swim collecting weeds the hole way on the stake out to the bummper and back and then gave me the look saying "Look what I got for you".  I like the enthusiasm but she needs to learn to honor other dogs. 

One person at the training day said that I should burn her till she yelps and then burn her all of the way back to heel when she breaks but that seems extreme and I would be afraid of dampening her spirit, she doesn't always respond well to high pressure.

I would think that repetitions should help with this but any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Jay

Do you guys do obedience in situations other than at your training group or at home? Like in a crowded park, for example? It helped Wyatt's steadiness on the line to take him to places where lots was going on and make him heel and sit perfectly with all that distraction. He still needed the "training tab" for the first few retrieves-but he was better. I could get after him for not having manners in a situation away from retrieves, and I didn't worry about it having a negative impression when it came to "work".

I had the same problem with my 87lb go getter.  It is actually a good problem to have.  I would much rather have to slow down a hard charging dog then motivate a non enthusiastic one.

Stu I think if I had tried standing on the place board thing on a water mark there would have been a rooster tail in the wake! 

It is all about steadiness right? Sounds like your dogs are enthusiastically retrieving now you need to make them comply with your way of doing it.  Teaching them to be steady should not take away their drive.   I was in exactly your same shoes not too long ago.

You cant just expect your dog who you have let charge out as soon as the bird or bumper hits the ground to automatically understand he sometimes has to wait for you to release him or has to watch another dog pick up his reward. They have to be taught!  I dont think burning them right off the bat is the best way to do this.  (you might need that later though)  Start out in the yard with delaying release of the dog on marks.  If the dog goes early, tell him no and call him back, sit him and make him wait for that reward.  I would even play games with Brady by saying other names at the line like Kathy, Bucket, what ever.  It teaches them to pay attention and listen for thier name or what ever release command you use. 

I also used a wiffle ball bat that was split on the end to swat him on the rear to teach your butt stays on the ground until I release you from SIT.  In our world Sit means Sit and there is no stay command.  He quickly learned if I told him sit and he got up before I released him that I would not be happy.  The sequence was Sit the dog, Rap on the butt with Bat to focus the dogs attention on SIT.   You can use this in conjunction with marks or with out.  I would sometimes sit him and then start throwing bumpers all around him. Over his head, right in front, etc, trying to tempt him to break.  If he did then a strong verbal No and re sit him and try again.  In the yard sometimes I throw happy bumpers and let him chase after them, sometimes I make him sit and wait for release command.  The happy bumpers keep him excited the sit command and release help to enforce steadiness.  Mixing them up makes him focus. 

Once you have worked on the above and the dog understands what is expected then you can try this to help.  If you dog is at the line running a mark or behind the line watching another dog run marks he is required to be steady until released to go and get his reward.  If he is not he should not get the reward. 

Never reward a breaking dog once the dog understands he is not to break.   A good technique some one taught me is if the dog breaks, Strong verbal NO,  Nick with the collar if necessary to keep him from getting reward , re heel, leash him up and put him back in the truck or kennel.  Send a pickup dog to get that bird.  Run another dog, and let him think about it for 5 minutes or so and line him up again for the same mark.   Demand steadiness, use strong verbal Sit, wiffle ball bat rap to focus,  and delay slightly before you release the dog.  If he breaks again repeat the cycle.  You should see the education process happening before your very eyes.  Repeat until you get postitive results. 


The above is what worked for me.  Brady was 100% steady at his two HRC seasoned tests this weekend.  Not to say he still might not break on me someday but he sure has learned a lot since I started foucusing on steadiness with him.  I am no Pro, just a back yard trainer so take this all with a grain of salt.   Hopefully it will help you some.

Joe

Hooligan...to answer your question...No...I dont work with Ellie anywhere other than in the yard.....or at the training group...but maybe I should try that....

Jim...I cannt agree with you more...It aint the dog....every day when I go out to train...I put my whistle and e collar control around my neck...and pin a sign on my back that say's "village idot of dog trainers".........I know I need a new pair of shoes...

The point I was trying to make....and apperently failed at is....at home in the yard she does what I want...SIT MEANS SIT....I can throw dummy's at her feet..swing them over her head....try to catch her off gaurd by using other terms as Joe suggested....and her butt is on the ground....I can leave her and walk to the back 40....she whines....most times she doesn't break....but if she does....I take her back to where she was originally sat....and we start over...its something we work on every day.....I lay on the ground....make stupid noises...do anything I can think of to make her break.....I can put her lead on...and pull on it....if she's been told to SIT...she doesnt move...I can shoot my retrieve r trainer....(her favorite thing in the whole world next to a live pheasant)....and she'll stay untill sent.....Its only when we get around other dogs.....she goes brain dead and has to retrieve each and every bird...no matter what the correction....

I did a test last night before the training group showed up....I let her run a field not far from where they were shooting sporting clays...as soon as she heard the guns going off...she was all business looking for the falling bird..and then started to hunt for it...I whistle sat her...and she just looked at me..but didnt break...called her in....then gave her the "hunt em up"...whistle sat her again.....no breaking...like I said before...its only when she gets around other dogs......

I dont know if its a competition thing or what...she goes 200% all the time..as anyone who has seen her run will agree with...

Maybe the next couple of times I take her to train with the group...I won't let her run at all....and spend the entire time....doing what it takes to make her a model citizen...I will definately try the prong collar....and I'll go buy a wiffle bat...

Jay...good luck with Scout...these two sound like they could be twin sisters from different mothers...

Joe thanks for the info...and hope that someday even my terrorist will come around and turn out as good as Brady..

Jim...I saved the article on SIT MEANS SIT...and will work on it..cuz I know I slip now and then....and that isnt allowed....

Stu,  sounds a lot like Brady.  Yard and Training by our selves he was solid, but add guns and lots of other dogs and he acted like he never had a lesson in his life.    I think part of your answer is Time and maturity in your dog.  To speed that up you need to train as often as possible with other dogs and guns. 

Make your dog sit and watch other dogs retrieve.  Talk nice to him and say No Bird when the mark goes up.  Using a command like No Bird or something else will help him realize later that "OK, he said No Bird, This one aint mine"  Stroke him and calm him down the best you can all the while restraining him.  Do this after he has had the energy burned off of him after exercise.  You will find that they eventually get used to the whole ordeal and will start remembering what you taught them about sit.  If that dont work, Try the ole, let him have a little length of check cord at a 45 deg angle trick, where if he does break he gets a loud verbal no and a spin at the end of the check cord.   Get another dog that is steady and make them take turns retrieving, your guy will learn he has to wait and take turns quick enough.

Sounds like you are doing fine Stu, just keep plugging away and re focusing your training to the needs of your dog.   Looking forward to meeting you in Iowa!


Joe

Stu,

These issues are normal, but remember, you gotta get em cleared up now. Kwick and I will both tell you that we heard, "oh don't worry, they will grow out of it!" And then they don't and you have to work 10 times harder to change bad habits into good habits.

Zeke and I struggled with these same issues, and we now have them under control. I will write a longer response when I can onhow we overcame this issue, but now I have to get back to work.

Zeke

Stu,

Maybe this weekend you should bring her. 

Saturday-Lots of dogs, guns going off, Dad (you) busy doing stuff, take her out of the crate to air, total compliance while out, then back in the crate.

Sunday-Lots of dogs, guns going off, Dad (you) busy doing stuff, take her out of the crate to air, total compliance while out, then back in the crate.  She gets to run as the test dog in CPR water if good on Saturday and Sunday morning.

Might be a big dose of thinking, "I get to go, when Dad says so"

Doug...you've seen her run...and know alot more about dogs than me...If you think it would be benifical if I brought her to Iowa...then I will....You've seen the good and the bad side of her...I would love to run her as a test dog...but thats up to you folks that are judging..or on the test commitee....

Stu,  bring her to Iowa!  I am judging Certified on Saturday and Advanced on Sunday.  Depending on what level she is at I will use her as test dog.  No problem!


Joe

Stu,

A couple of things come to mind.

First, make sure that you are working your dog's OB in a variety of distractions. Then, continue this OB while you try to keep increasing the levels of distractions. For example, I work on OB in crowded parks, when I throw a BBQ & Beer party, down crowded city streets. lately, I have really been increasing distractions on Zeke's whoa training. For example, I will put him on whoa then throw a quail right by him and let the quail flail and walk close to him. No e-collar, but he knows he needs to behave even in the most tempting of all situations and either stay sitting or on whoa. I thought he was "bullet proof" on this until he recently proved me wrong in a hunt test. The more you can train with a group where you can simulate a hunt test scenario (birds, guns, dogs, holding blinds, etc.), the better he will get, as long as you are insisting on strict OB during this event.

Second, Zeke's line manners used to be horrible. Just getting him to the line was a chore. So, 6 months ago I started heeling him for a few minutes then heel him to the line in our training. The birds would go up, as long as he behaved he got to retrieve. As soon as he was done, I would heel to either honor (If I was with others), or straight back to his kennel in my truck. In short, it was OB, retrieve, then OB. In our last test, his heeling to the line and line manners were greatly improved and I think alot of it is due to this routine. I used to let him run around a bit to unwind, retrieve, then let him run around again. Now, it is OB, retrieve, OB then back to his kennel. If he needs to unwind and run around a bit, I will make this a seperate session (10 minutes after training is over).

Finally, if he "starts dancing or surging" at the line, he now knows that he will not get to retrieve. Poor healing or line manners means that I get his retrieve or that he will go right back to his kennel. In exchange for his compliance, he gets to retreive, even if it means that I have to walk 150 yards to pick up his bird. This is had the most impact on him behaving at the line. Lately, we have been working on honoring quite a bit. I am not letting him go because we are honoring but he thinks it is because of poor line manners. The longer we honor, the more steady he gets, because he thinks his line manners and excitement are causing him not to get birds. After a few honors with impecable line manners, I give him the reward he earned, a retrieve.

Anyway, just a few thoughts that have worked for us, hope this helps.

Zeke

BTW - I know that you are excited about your new pup, should be a great dog!!

You aren't kidding Stu, these two girls sound like sisters seperated at birth.  Scout does good as long as there are no other dogs around.  She knows that she will eventually get the reward of the retrieve.  Throw another dog into the mix and her competitivness comes out.

A question that I have to all of you that keep your dogs in the house, are you always enforcing the OB or do you let them act like regular nonworking pets?  Is it alright for the kids to play with them.  Scout and my young lad are best of friends and play together like a couple of pups.  Is all of this  ok, should it be moderated, or should it not be allowed? 

Thanks for all of the good advice Scout and I have lots of new things to try out.


Thanks

Jay

Stu...I cannot think of any long lasting, bad habit, resentful, "I hate my master" results that would happen if you bring her to Elkhart.  If anyone has had any bad experiences with this scenario, please speak up. 

Just make sure and slip the lead around the neck so that you can keep control of the sit until you send. Otherwise, you will have no way of correcting her if she breaks.

I thought that Allie was as steady as a rock with a hunting season or two behind her, but I finally trained with another dog and honor sitting changed everything. Follow everything from above, but if you are expecting the distraction of another dog retrieving while you are honoring then you will have to train for this by actually honoring other dogs. If she keeps breaking, don't be afraid to stick her up (or so I've been told). You will have probably accomplished more by doing this than letting her run a couple of marks.

Good pros will even say "It's not the dog.", just maybe not as often.

Jay

Update...

Last night was training night...my plan was to make Ellie a model citizen...period...I followed the advise of Jim, Zeke and Joe...

I made her watch 5 dogs run...kept her under control the whole time..she whinned alot...but for the most part she sat...

I told the bird throwers that when I bring Ellie to the line....duck calls and shots...if she broke..pick up the bumpers...and she goes to the crate...I took the e collar off..and had the prong collar with a training tab on it...like Jim recomended...she never flinched...sat there like the rock ...so I sent her...stepped on the mark...perfect heel...delivered to hand..and set up for the next fall...same thing...duck call...shot in the air...dummy hits the ground...creeped this time..so I corrected with the tab and the prong collar...thrower picked up the bumper...and I walked her off the line to her crate...

Let two more dogs run..and I brought her back...this time both left and right she didnt move a muscle..and got to retrieve both bumpers...back to the crate...took her back out on a lead and made her watch the last 3 dogs run...then we went home...a successful night in my book...

tonight it was too hot to train...and I had to mow the yard...so I made her sit on the deck in the shade while I mowed an acre of yard...she sat for about 20 mins before she wondered off...I resat her..and made her stay there for another 10 mins or so......I'm sure Lardy or Evan never used this type of training...but I was was sure impressed on how well she had done...

thanks for your help everyone...

Read the April '06 Tip of the Month at www.gunclub-labs.com



.

Well done Stu, well done!

I too have been having Zeke sit or whoa while I do outside chores and its having a good effect.

Zeke

Doc, the paycheck is in the mail. For a Swedish guy you are something else! Your words are appreciated, now I wish we hadn't made you scoop poop. Ah well.

Guys, I have never done the 'watch other dogs' thing, until they are done. I agree with Hooligan on this one. Train your dog in lots of places, keep the standards the SAME. What you might think about is how does YOUR behavior change when you are at an event or in front of other people. If yours does, so does your dogs for sure. Train your dog to work with you, expect them to work with you and do it eveywhere even if President Bush is standing there watching you. You'll find both your mind and the dogs will be more on the work at hand than the process of getting there. I know this isn't as rewarding as all lkinds of neat things to do, but I guarantee that it works. AT least practice high standards in embarassing places and suddenly your dog will be doing the same thing.

Mike, I have some info for you, email me. I can't get your email off this forum thing..

Julie

Wow!  Made my day...