Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 15 Dec 2011 03:11 PM |
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Pavlov trained dogs to salivate when they heard a bell ring. Why couldn't one train a dog to point on command?
Jere |
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Liv2Hnt
Advanced Member
Posts:501
Overland Park, KS
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| 15 Dec 2011 03:21 PM |
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Seriously......
You can't train a dog to point, because it is an instinctive and natural behavior that has been bred in to working/sporting dogs. You can train a dog to be steady after it has pointed naturally, but if you are training a dog to stop upon bird scent, it IS NOT POINTING. |
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| Edward McNally
Amateur trainer/ owner/ rookie handler of:
4 X GMPR HRCH McNally's Right Stuff Ridley (5 MH Passes) |
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younggunz
New Member
Posts:40
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| 15 Dec 2011 04:12 PM |
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So does a dog taught the "standing game" pass an apla test if it does everything required in the rules? Have been trying to keep up with all the info you guys are giving too much information still isn't enough whether its useful or not for whoever is taking it in. After reading everything on fear of the flush thread and a few others am curious if those "standing game" dogs pass tests or how do you recognize it? |
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tigerliberty
Basic Member
Posts:254
Michigan
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| 15 Dec 2011 06:45 PM |
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Posted By younggunz on 15 Dec 2011 04:12 PM
So does a dog taught the "standing game" pass an apla test if it does everything required in the rules? Have been trying to keep up with all the info you guys are giving too much information still isn't enough whether its useful or not for whoever is taking it in. After reading everything on fear of the flush thread and a few others am curious if those "standing game" dogs pass tests or how do you recognize it?
yes- and I hate it- there is no good reason for it- our judges ought to be experienced enough to be able to tell the difference but our rules allow for it. Not good for an organization who's mission statement is to identify and promote. In my eyes if you want to grow the APLA you better get better at those two things. |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 15 Dec 2011 06:49 PM |
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Posted By younggunz on 15 Dec 2011 04:12 PM
So does a dog taught the "standing game" pass an apla test if it does everything required in the rules? Have been trying to keep up with all the info you guys are giving too much information still isn't enough whether its useful or not for whoever is taking it in. After reading everything on fear of the flush thread and a few others am curious if those "standing game" dogs pass tests or how do you recognize it?
Edward...I TOTALLY get your point but I'm not sure that it's not a distinction without a difference.
Grabbing the arm of a criminal carrying a gun...and oh, by the way, the arm (hand) that the gun is being carried in...is not "instinctive behavior" for the "police dog" breeds but is exceptionally appropriate for the task at hand.
I'm not sure that it makes any difference WHY a dog will stand steady during a close encounter with a game bird...for the purpose of intimidating the bird into hunkering down instead of flying.
I think there is a 100% chance that the BIRD doesn't know that one dog may being staring at him out of instinct and the other due to training.
It is well documented that non-traditional pointing breeds can and are taught to "take up a immobile position" in close proximity to a game bird. Frankly, I don't know why people train dogs to do so since there is no evidence THAT I KNOW OF which suggests that owners of pointing dogs bag more or less game...all else equal...than owners of flushing dogs.
But that's another debate.
As for this discussion, I would concluded that the BIRD will hold (or not)in the presence of a dog that is devoid of pointing instinct just as it would (or wouldn't) if being pointed at instinctively.
All that said...I don't KNOW but would GUESS that dogs trained to stand still near a game bird generally don't exhibit the "elegance" and "style" that pointing dogs owners crave.
As a formerly dyed-in-the-wool flushing breed owner I can testify that it is TOTALLY FANTASTIC to watch Cody lock up on a stylish point and I LOVE to watch the awestruck faces of pointer owners I hunt with when he does.
I only wish I had known about pointing Labs earlier in my life.
regards,
Jim |
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tigerliberty
Basic Member
Posts:254
Michigan
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| 15 Dec 2011 06:55 PM |
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Posted By Jere on 15 Dec 2011 03:11 PM
Pavlov trained dogs to salivate when they heard a bell ring. Why couldn't one train a dog to point on command?
Jere
I've yet to see one salivate at a bird |
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| 4xGMPR HRCH HRK's Rooster Smasher QAA MH
4XGMPR HRCH HRK's Diesel Smokin4U
GMPR HRCH Tiger Of Cattail Corky
HRK's Liberty And Justice for All |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 15 Dec 2011 11:28 PM |
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Posted By tigerliberty on 15 Dec 2011 06:55 PM
Posted By Jere on 15 Dec 2011 03:11 PM
Pavlov trained dogs to salivate when they heard a bell ring. Why couldn't one train a dog to point on command?
Jere
I've yet to see one salivate at a bird
Dale, you miss the point. Salivation in response to sight or scent or taste of food is a hardwired reflex behavior. (We have largely bred the perception of birds as food out of our hunting dogs.) We know "pointing" in response to sight or scent of game is instinctive and pretty much hardwired. We may not be CERTAIN it is a reflex, in which case a Pavlovian conditioning program would almost certainly "work," - but it might be and I suspect it is close. If so, it should be relatively easy to condition a dog which has a decent level of natural point (underlined for Ed) to point "on command" much as the horse Seabiscuit was conditioned to dash out of the gate on the race track when he heard the bell!
Some folks train their dog to pee or poop (there is a delay because it takes a bit for peristalsis, the reflex you'd condition, to actually move stuff down the pipe) on command and many of us, I suspect, train ours to shake (off water) on command. Same principle - Pavlovian or Classical Conditioning.
Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 16 Dec 2011 12:04 AM |
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Posted By av84fun on 15 Dec 2011 06:49 PM
Posted By younggunz on 15 Dec 2011 04:12 PM
So does a dog taught the "standing game" pass an apla test if it does everything required in the rules? Have been trying to keep up with all the info you guys are giving too much information still isn't enough whether its useful or not for whoever is taking it in. After reading everything on fear of the flush thread and a few others am curious if those "standing game" dogs pass tests or how do you recognize it?
Edward...I TOTALLY get your point but I'm not sure that it's not a distinction without a difference.
...
regards,
Jim
Jim, it may be true the practical differences are more or less slight.
But the number one purpose of the APLA is to "Identify, certify, and promote a strain of Labrador Retriever that points game as a natural act while retaining the Labrador's traditional superior ability to retrieve game on land and in water. " emphasis added. The operative word here is " strain." This means: as time goes by and the APLA testing program identifies and grants titles and legitimacy to individual dogs as "Pointing Labradors," as these dogs are bred within this sub-gene pool, the relative percentage of progeny which "point as a natural act" (and the intensity, perhaps the pointing style) should be expected to increase. Eventually essentially 100% of all progeny should do so, the strain "breeds true," and consumers purchasing such an animal should be able to feel confident they are actually buying a LR which has this unique characteristic as an inherited trait, etc. A breeder's claim to be a breeder of Pointing Labradors would actually mean something practical in the marketplace. This can not happen, or is slowed substantially, if the testing program fails to distinguish between dogs which point as a natural act and those trained to behave so that they appear to do so.
IF the APLA ever gets there or even close, it will probably have to establish a "registry" and maintain some level of control over the sure to be necessary "outcross" breedings to the much larger non point carrying gene pool in order the organization's integrity be maintained. Ultimately, I strongly suspect a genetic test will be necessary - for reasons I've mentioned in the trainwreck thread. Jere |
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tigerliberty
Basic Member
Posts:254
Michigan
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| 16 Dec 2011 04:15 AM |
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Posted By Jere on 15 Dec 2011 11:28 PM
Posted By tigerliberty on 15 Dec 2011 06:55 PM
Posted By Jere on 15 Dec 2011 03:11 PM
Pavlov trained dogs to salivate when they heard a bell ring. Why couldn't one train a dog to point on command?
Jere
I've yet to see one salivate at a bird
Dale, you miss the point.
Salivation in response to sight or scent or taste of food is a hardwired reflex behavior. (We have largely bred the perception of birds as food out of our hunting dogs.) We know "pointing" in response to sight or scent of game is instinctive and pretty much hardwired. We may not be CERTAIN it is a reflex, in which case a Pavlovian conditioning program would almost certainly "work," - but it might be and I suspect it is close. If so, it should be relatively easy to condition a dog which has a decent level of natural point (underlined for Ed) to point "on command" much as the horse Seabiscuit was conditioned to dash out of the gate on the race track when he heard the bell!
Some folks train their dog to pee or poop (there is a delay because it takes a bit for peristalsis, the reflex you'd condition, to actually move stuff down the pipe) on command and many of us, I suspect, train ours to shake (off water) on command. Same principle - Pavlovian or Classical Conditioning.
Jere
Actually Jere you missed the point, I put that one line comment down to baffle you with humor. I was joking. |
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| 4xGMPR HRCH HRK's Rooster Smasher QAA MH
4XGMPR HRCH HRK's Diesel Smokin4U
GMPR HRCH Tiger Of Cattail Corky
HRK's Liberty And Justice for All |
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younggunz
New Member
Posts:40
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| 16 Dec 2011 07:34 AM |
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Seriously......
You can't train a dog to point, because it is an instinctive and natural behavior that has been bred in to working/sporting dogs. You can train a dog to be steady after it has pointed naturally, but if you are training a dog to stop upon bird scent, it IS NOT POINTING.
Ed I feel the same as you wrote in the sentence above. But someone training the standing game is still passing apla tests. So according to the ribbons that standing game dog has, he was trained to point. Kind of a grey area there. Like Dale said and I would agree something should be done to change that. |
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redlabel
Basic Member
Posts:166
South Dakota
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| 16 Dec 2011 08:46 AM |
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Not so Seriously
I got it Dale you can baffle me with intelligence but not humor.
Jere, Ever read Moin Compe? Trying to baffle you with misspelling this time.
On the more serious side, I knew where you were going with this from your original post Jere. And I do agree we need to weed out the standing of game. As for ribbons yes a dog can get a ribbon if it stands game to the point it suffices the rules. I also agree that the judges should be afforded the luxury of rating style to the point of pass or fail. I dont think this should just be something the judges take upon themselves because they are NOT supposed to make the rules but rather enforce them. Judicial tyranny would be a fast way to ruin what we as an organization have worked hard to build. Yes Jere we do need to do more to become "legitimate" to both the retriever and pointing world. I dont think it comes by taking away the liberty of those that choose to breed certain dogs or by imposing a breed police atmosphere as other groups have done. I think that could eliminate some really good dogs, take a look at some of the dogs up for hof for instance.
Thats why I dont run a German anything. Oops was that a racial slur? humor Jere just humor. |
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Trout Bum
Advanced Member
Posts:530
Elbert County, CO
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| 16 Dec 2011 08:50 AM |
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The German's now have a bunch of English in them and as a result are much more stylish....running and pointing.  |
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| ¶r² |
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redlabel
Basic Member
Posts:166
South Dakota
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| 16 Dec 2011 08:57 AM |
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Hey TB you got it! |
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| Be all you can be |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 16 Dec 2011 11:02 AM |
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Jere...Your OP said nothing about "trained pointing" in the context of the mission of the APLA?????????????
While I fully agree with your APLA-related views, I guess I don't understand the nature of the discussion you wanted to promote.
Regards,
Jim |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 16 Dec 2011 11:03 PM |
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Posted By tigerliberty on 16 Dec 2011 04:15 AM
Posted By Jere on 15 Dec 2011 11:28 PM
Posted By tigerliberty on 15 Dec 2011 06:55 PM
Posted By Jere on 15 Dec 2011 03:11 PM
Pavlov trained dogs to salivate when they heard a bell ring. Why couldn't one train a dog to point on command?
Jere
I've yet to see one salivate at a bird
Dale, you miss the point.
Salivation in response to sight or scent or taste of food is a hardwired reflex behavior. (We have largely bred the perception of birds as food out of our hunting dogs.) We know "pointing" in response to sight or scent of game is instinctive and pretty much hardwired. We may not be CERTAIN it is a reflex, in which case a Pavlovian conditioning program would almost certainly "work," - but it might be and I suspect it is close. If so, it should be relatively easy to condition a dog which has a decent level of natural point (underlined for Ed) to point "on command" much as the horse Seabiscuit was conditioned to dash out of the gate on the race track when he heard the bell!
Some folks train their dog to pee or poop (there is a delay because it takes a bit for peristalsis, the reflex you'd condition, to actually move stuff down the pipe) on command and many of us, I suspect, train ours to shake (off water) on command. Same principle - Pavlovian or Classical Conditioning.
Jere
Actually Jere you missed the point, I put that one line comment down to baffle you with humor. I was joking.
I figured, Dale; but had something to say. You opened the door. Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Jere
Advanced Member
Posts:648
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| 16 Dec 2011 11:45 PM |
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Redlabel,
No, are you suggesting a resemblance of some sort?
Actually the thread went off on this tangent by itself. I actually wanted to mention the classical or Pavlovian conditioning stuff because some trainers of dogs might find knowing it broadens their bag of tricks.
I have a problem with getting too hung up on "style" because there are examples of naturally solidly pointing breeds which have "styles" which are not at all impressive to me (and others). The Munsterlanders and French Brits (maybe) come to mind.
The more I have thought about the new subject over the years, the more I've become concerned about the viability of actually being able to detect fraud committed by the sufficiently dedicated conman. It could get awfully difficult if all one is going to rely on is judges' perceptions/assessments of what they see when the dog "points" or appears to "point!" As I pointed out, seriously, in the 'train-wreck,' a dog can be trained to stand with any posture or style the trainer wants and I'll bet intensity can be "trained" too - tense quivering muscles, bulging eyes, deep breathing - almost anything you want.
See the first photo of this page:
http://www.caninehorizons.com/A_Job_for_April.html
The poodle owner put it up earlier on another site, the owner mentioned some of the training as I remember - her site is gone now, or I can't find it.
Maybe going to brace "competitions" to determine titles, at least to supplement the tests, might help.
One can only hope science catches up with this need and a genetic basis for 'point' is available soon. I won't count on it though.
Jim, See my response to Dale and the comment above. Just trying to expose folks to something many don't realize, promote thought, and keep what someone on Facebook called a "dying horse" alive.
Jere |
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| Owned by: Alma Bottom Smokin' Storm - 'Storm' - avatar and Shadow's Tucker - 'Tuck' |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 17 Dec 2011 03:40 PM |
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Jere, I totally get it that...oh, how shall I put it..."non-instinctive" pointing can and probably would hurt the "Pointing Lab" subset...possibly very badly...if lots of advanced pointing titles are awarded to "non-instinctive" labs who have been trained to hold steady for CPR purposes but which won't pass on that "training" to their progeny.
But at the same time, caveat emptor ought to be the mantra of anyone intent upon purchasing a supposed Pointing Lab. I did what should be the absolute minimum that any PL puppy buyer should do which is to WATCH the parent or parents if possible...ACTUALLY LOCKING UP on an obviously instinctive version of pointing.
In addition, I had reason to TOTALLY TRUST the breeder (not all prospective buyers will have such reasons, I admit) who told me point blank (excuse the pun) that all of Cody's nearby relatives were POINTING FOOLS!
I had no reason then...or now...to disbelieve that statement. (The Fowler family of Snake River Pointing Labs in Heyburn, ID)f
But YES...it is not only possible but PROBABLE that a given breeder will pawn off progeny of Titled dogs as "instinctive pointers" when they're not...and/or lazy buyers who don't do their research to FIND OUT.*
Regards,
Jim
*I don't dispute your thesis that every characteristic of "instinctive pointing" COULD be trained thereby fooling a given buyer who watches the parent in the field. But that would undoubtedly require a TON of training for scant reward.
In addition, no such training could pass to the offspring of such dogs so watching them would reveal the scam.
But what if you are looking at the FIRST litter from a given breeding?
1. Check out the grand sire and dam which too would reveal the scam or better yet...
2. Never buy a pup from a first breeding of a given sire/dam since it is well known that progeny often do NOT possess the best traits of their parents no matter how careful the breeders are in their breeding selections.
So, if BOTH parents AND several offspring from former litters are POINTING LABS...then the rest is just the luck of the draw....IMHO.
(-:
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Doc_E
Veteran Member
Posts:1935
N.E. WA state
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| 18 Dec 2011 05:05 PM |
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Posted By redlabel on 16 Dec 2011 08:46 AM
I dont think it comes by taking away the liberty of those that choose to breed certain dogs or by imposing a breed police atmosphere as other groups have done. I think that could eliminate some really good dogs........................
That's only partially true, as evidenced by the APLA Policy that, " For a litter or a dog to be advertised at least one of the parents must have an APLA title."
As well as, "Both parents require a hip OFA number and CERF number submitted with the ad." And yet, no mention is made about Elbows, CNM, EIC or PRA.
I know that there are huge numbers of PLs "out there" that can do everything that it takes to be a GMPR that have never run and never will run an APLA Test -- and yet dogs that have MAYBE just been trained to stand game are allowed.
The APLA has come a long way ---- but there is much farther to go.
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Doc E and Nami E
UH HR MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
HR Friar Tucker (titled at 12.5 months) |
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Jim
Basic Member
Posts:144
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| 19 Dec 2011 12:12 AM |
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Posted By Doc_E on 18 Dec 2011 05:05 PM
Posted By redlabel on 16 Dec 2011 08:46 AM
I dont think it comes by taking away the liberty of those that choose to breed certain dogs or by imposing a breed police atmosphere as other groups have done. I think that could eliminate some really good dogs........................
That's only partially true, as evidenced by the APLA Policy that, " For a litter or a dog to be advertised at least one of the parents must have an APLA title."
As well as, "Both parents require a hip OFA number and CERF number submitted with the ad." And yet, no mention is made about Elbows, CNM, EIC or PRA.
I know that there are huge numbers of PLs "out there" that can do everything that it takes to be a GMPR that have never run and never will run an APLA Test -- and yet dogs that have MAYBE just been trained to stand game are allowed.
The APLA has come a long way ---- but there is much farther to go.
.
As a man who is new to the APLA...AND...Pointing Labs...AND pointing dogs of any kind, I find this thread very interesting.
As a knee-jerk reaction from a newbie...my inclination would be to disallow a passing grade in a CPR test to any dog that...according to the judges...was OBVIOUSLY "standing game" as opposed to engaging in a "genetically derived" pointing behavior.
I HASTEN to add that I have NO CLUE whether there is any set of objective criteria upon which judges could rely in making that determination.
But if it IS possible to distinguish between "pointing" and "standing game" then standing game should be a DQ in any CPR test...IMHO.
HAVING SAID THAT...IF holding steady in the proximity of a game bird is supposed to intimidate the bird into hunkering down rather than flushing, then I wonder...and ask for opinions...as to whether FOR THE PURPOSES OF HUNTING...whether the dog's act of standing game is any more or less likely to "hold the bird" than "pointing."
If there is no scientifically derived EVIDENCE that a game bird is more likely to hold still for X length of time when confronted with a POINT relative to a dog that is STANDING GAME...then the argument against titling a "standing game" dog would be weakened measurably.
Having never attempted to teach a dog to stand game, I have no clue how difficult that process might be but intuitively, I would assume that it would be MUCH more difficult to engage in raw standing game training than to train a dog that it instinctively disposed to naturally POINT.
IF that is true...I wonder why in the world anyone would wish to engage in standing game training on a perfectly good flushing lab!
I say that because I am not aware of any evidence (it might exists...but I am not aware of it) that shows that pointing dogs are responsible for producing more "shootable" upland game than flushing dogs.
IS there any such evidence...or is the ownership of flushing vs. pointing dogs merely a matter of owner preference?
Having said THAT...I assume that there are certain types of upland birds that are more readily harvested by pointers than flushing dogs so I suppose I should limit my question to the king of upland birds...the pheasant.
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Regards,
Jim |
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Maximillion
Basic Member
Posts:380
Kenly, North Carolina
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| 19 Dec 2011 03:34 AM |
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Jim, here is the rule on point in CPR and actually same statement in APR and MPR: )Judges are to allow for all styles of point. To establish point the dog must become motionless in a standing position (movement of the head or tail is allowed). The dog must clearly establish point on its own prior to any type of command or signal given by the handler) If you have seen a dog that has been Whoa into birds before there is a big difference between that type point (standing game) and a natural point, I have seen it a couple time since I started judging this year, The dogs still passed based on the rules, that is a hot topic these days. To me a natural point is unmistakable. Now I cannot comment on wild birds, we have hunted wild quail, and they tend to hold pretty well, and the majority of the birds I deal with are preserve birds, the wild ones pheasant and such are a good drive away.
I will not get into if I agree or disagree with scoring this type of so called point which standing game is not. Until the rules get changed, that is all we have to go by, and we have to set our biases aside. I just don't know how the rules could be changed and 1) be fair to all dogs pertaining to their styles of point and 2) be short enough not to put you a sleep while reading. and yes I would volunteer to help rewrite if asked.
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Richard McCullough
3.5XGMPR HRCH Lankas Labs Brandys Maximillion MH "Max"
CPR SHR Rick's Rooster Smasher of DRL JH "Eli"
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